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WFRP 3.5 or 4e - truth or rumour?


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#1 Beren Eoath

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 08:56 PM

For me such thing as the lack of dice, no reprints, the big winter sale-out and no annoucements mean that FFG is planing a 3.5 or 4e of WFRP. And I really don't get it why people are getting so nervous about it? Fans of WFRP 2e were unhappy when FFG announced 3e, now fans of the 3e are nervouse becouse there is a chance, not officialy confirmed, that FFG would release 3.5e or 4e of WFRP. It always like that. People should be happy that the game is evolves and You are still getting more options in it and every edition is trying to be better then previous. The truth is that every WFRP was different and You can choose which one is the best for You. And with so much prevoius materials You can create an endless adventure.

No WFRP had to much luck in publishing for a long time. 1st edition was reprinted 3 times, 2nd edition was published only for 4 years and in 2008 they got only one expansion and in 2009 only two (one was Career Compendium) and the game ended. From 2009 we are getting 3e and in those couple of years we got amny expansions. Now the game is not selling and what's more the game is loosing against other fantasy RPGs. The licence costs FFG a lot so for me the next step would be to make the game sale.

Many fans of the old editions turned away from 3e becouse of too much cards and mechanical ideas that they did not liked. Now i think FFG whats to repair those mistakes.  I believe that FFG is still working on WFRP but not on 3e. They give us PODs becouse those are the way to give players some materials that would in other way would never see daylight. I think that FFG whant to do something that like a new edition that would give players a chance to customise the game they what. One of the thing they should change is to make the cards as optional componets not a must use. The other would be to change the mechanic so that You can play only with books. The game could be still published in boxes with all the stuff in it but the players would have the chance to leave in the box all the stuff they don't whant ot need.

I don't know what FFG will do, what they are planing or what they are working on now but I still think that there is a lot of material published so far that let players have fun for many years.

Cheers and happy gaming



#2 ragnar63

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:53 PM

Unfortunately endless new editions is the last thing most people want. Look at what happened with D&D 4th. A large minority didn't want to know and Pathfinder was born. Those people are not going back to D&D 5th when it comes out, guaranteed. Likewise when 3rd came out, the Warhammer community split into two. If FFG produce WFRP 3.5 or 4, then the community will split again, producing progressively smaller and smaller customer bases. This will be particularly so, if the products are as expensive as the 3rd edition was. Most of the 2nd edition people will not touch FFG now, and many of the 3rd will as well because the new edition will not have the elements that they like.

One thing FFG will not do will be to produce two versions of a new edition, one with cards and paraphenalia and one like the new Star Wars. The cards edition will never sell enough to justify the cost. The new edition, if so, will be like The Star Wars RPG, which will mean an even lower customer base for FFG, because the 2nd edition and hard core 3rd edition card lovers will not convert. It will also mean that we will not see, Brettonian , Elven , Kislevian, Tilean, Estalien or Marienburg supplements ever again.

My only hope is that they do do a Beta version and properly playtest a new edition this time. But I am not convinced that they are going to get people to buy Realms of Sorcery or Tome of Corruption for the third time in ten years.



#3 James Sparrow

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 11:57 PM

ragnar63 said:

Unfortunately endless new editions is the last thing most people want. Look at what happened with D&D 4th. A large minority didn't want to know and Pathfinder was born. Those people are not going back to D&D 5th when it comes out, guaranteed. Likewise when 3rd came out, the Warhammer community split into two. If FFG produce WFRP 3.5 or 4, then the community will split again, producing progressively smaller and smaller customer bases. This will be particularly so, if the products are as expensive as the 3rd edition was. Most of the 2nd edition people will not touch FFG now, and many of the 3rd will as well because the new edition will not have the elements that they like.

One thing FFG will not do will be to produce two versions of a new edition, one with cards and paraphenalia and one like the new Star Wars. The cards edition will never sell enough to justify the cost. The new edition, if so, will be like The Star Wars RPG, which will mean an even lower customer base for FFG, because the 2nd edition and hard core 3rd edition card lovers will not convert. It will also mean that we will not see, Brettonian , Elven , Kislevian, Tilean, Estalien or Marienburg supplements ever again.

My only hope is that they do do a Beta version and properly playtest a new edition this time. But I am not convinced that they are going to get people to buy Realms of Sorcery or Tome of Corruption for the third time in ten years.

A streamlined version would be a good idea, but there would have to be a very significant degree of backward compatibility. I think even WFRP3 fans recognise there is a very serious component-bloat problem, but they will still want to use all the cards they've spent a small fortune buying over the last few years, even if they are using them in a different way.

WFRP3.5/4 is pretty much a rumour we've created right here on this forum. However, FFG has done nothing to squash the speculation, and the company seems to have a policy of giving zero information until it's ready, so it's kind of inevitable people are thinking that way. Personally, while I'm still inclined to take no information as a strong indication of either cancellation or a revised/new edition, neither of those options makes sense when you consider the recent announcement of a new type of PoD product specifically for WFRP3.

Whatever's going on (cancellation/new edition/infrequent print releases/total shift to PoD), FFG appears to believe that no information is less commercially damaging than the truth. I find it hard to believe there is genuinely nothing to tell us.

Cheers

Sparrow



#4 Beren Eoath

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 02:27 AM

The rumour that FFG is starting to work on a new WFRP (3.5 or 4e) started to apear on forums in october/november 2011 when FFG started to slow down the line. The new type of POD means nothing becouse they created it and will use it in many other games.

And about Pthfinder it based on DnD 3e and showed up after DnD3.5 was announced (the worst of all DnD line). Becouse DnD 3.5 was not selling well Wotc made a DnD 4e. But the DnD 4e has a sirious problem - You must use maps and figures and must have a part of the class pages from rulebook for action. It all was not a good idea. In WFRP 3e it's similar. Of course when FFG annouced 3e the fans split it those who stil play 2e and into those that like 3e. But WFRP 3e is not selling, there are no reprints and no future plans. FFG will not give players or fans any news when they will have something ready to go to the printers but this does not mean they will not make a new/revised edition.

They could make not two diffenrnt line (one with and other with out cards) but they could do one line that lets You as a player to choose componets You want to use. There will be those that like cards and those who won't  use the in there games but players will have a choice. I agre that when FFG will make a new WFRP it will look similar to SW RPGs becouse those are cheaper and easier to make. but they could still make a backward compatibility with 3e or make new cards but as optional components.

The argument that You spended so much money on expansions and in future they could be useless is childish. The same could all fans of previous editions of every gamer say. A new edition mean not that the fans will split but lets them to choose more options. The money counts and the game must be selling good to have more expansions comming. It the game is not selling, like WFRP, there is something wrong with this game and a publisher must make a new better version to earn money. So sorry but a compony must make money or they will be no more games.

I still think that in every edition of WFRP there is so much material and adventures that You can play for many, many years to come.

Cheers



#5 Herr Arnulfe

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 02:51 AM

If a new edition was aimed at winning back 1e and 2e fans, I think it would be very easy to convince them to jump ship. Most 1e/2e players realise their system has problems. Not sure whether 3e fans could be persuaded as easily, considering 3e is newer and also involves heavy investment in components.



#6 James Sparrow

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:02 AM

Herr Arnulfe said:

If a new edition was aimed at winning back 1e and 2e fans, I think it would be very easy to convince them to jump ship. Most 1e/2e players realise their system has problems. Not sure whether 3e fans could be persuaded as easily, considering 3e is newer and also involves heavy investment in components.

I think you might be right about winning over at least some WFRP1/2 fans, but at the same time fans who are still playing have probably found enough ways around the problems that they don't need a new edition. And there is still the traditional problem that Ragnar points out of Emipre Guide/RoS/C all over again.

New editions seem to be the only way to generate fresh interest, but at the same time you need to create original material to mainain the interest of long-established players and GMs. If a new edition has genuine backward compatibility, then you could still sell the old stuff to new players, but create new stuff you can sell to old and new alike. This might be possible, but it's probably a dubious proposition and financially not worth the effort.

I still don't know whether the success of the W40K lines is down to its more traditional system or the higher fire-power of the setting.

Cheers

Sparrow

 



#7 ragnar63

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:02 AM

Beren Eoath said:

 

.

The argument that You spended so much money on expansions and in future they could be useless is childish. The same could all fans of previous editions of every gamer say. 

 

I didn't say useless at all, as Marienburg, sold down the river is my favourite WFRP supplement ever. But why should I or anybody else buy their third edition of something in ten years, when much of it will have to be the same.  I know as well as any that FFG are in it purely to make money, thats fine. However a slimmed down version more like the Star Wars RPG will not make money because it will be either too similar to 3rd edition or will be so different that most of us will not be bothered about buying our third version of the same items in  ten years. What 2nd edition gamers are after is more source books and adventures for 2nd edition. Likewise 3rd edition gamers are largely the same, they don't want to buy the same stuff again purely because it is a new edition. However from a commercial point of view it is the Core Rules, Realms of Sorcery, Tome of Corruption that make the money, not adventures or sourcebooks. However the latter is what gamers are after now, to cover the areas of the Old World not covered by the previous editions or new adventures and campaigns.

Personally the only stuff after three editions that I haven't played is the Doomstones campaign, and having read it, I am not particularly interested in GMing it, too D & D. My solution is to write my own stuff for Liber Fanatica, but not everybody has the time or ability to do that.



#8 ragnar63

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:12 AM

James Sparrow said:

I still don't know whether the success of the W40K lines is down to its more traditional system or the higher fire-power of the setting.

Largely down to the traditional system and the the clever way that they have split up the various aspects of 40K society and military. Unfortunately with WFRP the cleverness went into the game system which was however not properly playtested for such a new product.



#9 Herr Arnulfe

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:39 AM

James Sparrow said:

I think you might be right about winning over at least some WFRP1/2 fans, but at the same time fans who are still playing have probably found enough ways around the problems that they don't need a new edition. And there is still the traditional problem that Ragnar points out of Emipre Guide/RoS/C all over again.

Sure, I've managed to paper over v2's flaws to my satisfaction, but if someone released a new edition that fixed most of those flaws, and reduced my houserules, I'd jump ship in a second. It's always preferable to play as close to RAW as possible for the sake of player expectations, IMO. v2 is not that brilliant a percentile system that it would be super difficult to improve upon.

In terms of sourcebooks, they'd have to get a little creative and not just re-release RoS, ToS etc. If 50% of the content in a v4 Magic and Religion book was new (and also good) I bet even people who own the previous books would buy them.



#10 Emirikol

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 11:06 AM

I can't see FFG putting out anythign that would beat the hardcovers put out for 2e.  ToS, RoS, and ToC were simply unbeatable for sheer, usable, playable content.  FFG can't even put out flippin' dice, much less pull off anything beyond POD for this game anymore.  TEW was welcome, but it was their last hurrah and was a year behind schedule. Anyone thinking 4e will happen is smoking something in Amsterdam imho.

 

jh



#11 Brand

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 11:09 AM

Herr Arnulfe said:

James Sparrow said:

 

I think you might be right about winning over at least some WFRP1/2 fans, but at the same time fans who are still playing have probably found enough ways around the problems that they don't need a new edition. And there is still the traditional problem that Ragnar points out of Emipre Guide/RoS/C all over again.

 

 

Sure, I've managed to paper over v2's flaws to my satisfaction, but if someone released a new edition that fixed most of those flaws, and reduced my houserules, I'd jump ship in a second. It's always preferable to play as close to RAW as possible for the sake of player expectations, IMO. v2 is not that brilliant a percentile system that it would be super difficult to improve upon.

In terms of sourcebooks, they'd have to get a little creative and not just re-release RoS, ToS etc. If 50% of the content in a v4 Magic and Religion book was new (and also good) I bet even people who own the previous books would buy them.

Herr Arnulfe said:

James Sparrow said:

 

I think you might be right about winning over at least some WFRP1/2 fans, but at the same time fans who are still playing have probably found enough ways around the problems that they don't need a new edition. And there is still the traditional problem that Ragnar points out of Emipre Guide/RoS/C all over again.

 

 

Sure, I've managed to paper over v2's flaws to my satisfaction, but if someone released a new edition that fixed most of those flaws, and reduced my houserules, I'd jump ship in a second. It's always preferable to play as close to RAW as possible for the sake of player expectations, IMO. v2 is not that brilliant a percentile system that it would be super difficult to improve upon.

In terms of sourcebooks, they'd have to get a little creative and not just re-release RoS, ToS etc. If 50% of the content in a v4 Magic and Religion book was new (and also good) I bet even people who own the previous books would buy them.

I'm in the exact same boat.  I love 2E and wish I had all of the books for it.  I'd still happily play or run it today if I could.  For a number of reasons, I passed on the current edition because it just wasn't for me or my group.  I'd love to see a new version of the game, one that I could get excited about jumping into and buying new books again.  Some of the material would need to be reprinted for those not already familiar with the setting, but there's still a ton of untapped potential in the WFRP world and I'd love to see other lands explored.



#12 Spivo

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:31 PM

These rumours have been going on for roughly 3 years now, eventually I guess one of them will hit home and be true, as 95% of succesfull games are being made into a new edition in time.

Maybe make a macro that posts these threads every 3 months?



#13 Karma Kollapse

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:40 PM

Spivo said:

These rumours have been going on for roughly 3 years now, eventually I guess one of them will hit home and be true, as 95% of succesfull games are being made into a new edition in time.

Maybe make a macro that posts these threads every 3 months?

I was under the impression people already had set that up. Certainly seems like it!



#14 Sebashaw

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 01:50 AM

Maybe we will see something new when Total War: Warhammer will come out.

Probably in the 2016.



#15 ragnar63

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 02:10 AM

James Sparrow said:

I think you might be right about winning over at least some WFRP1/2 fans, but at the same time fans who are still playing have probably found enough ways around the problems that they don't need a new edition. And there is still the traditional problem that Ragnar points out of Emipre Guide/RoS/C all over again.

The only way a new edition might work is if they revamp the magic system and slim down third edition to something like the new Star Wars RPG. The other way to get around the reprint problem is if the setting was moved to somewhere else in the Warhammer world. What I was thinking was that the setting could be shifted to the Empire colony in Lustria. Great setting allowing you to go into a complete colony in detail. You could still have the alien races, but Elves would ber rarer still, as the Wood Elves aren't seen there and the High Elves don't approve of the colony at all. However you could bring in the Lizardmen and Slann as regular enemies or even friends in their inscrutable way when the Skaven turn up.

The other option would be to set the new edition in the Border Princes rather than the Empire and so widen the number of human races available to include Tileans and Estaliens, instead of Kislevites and Norse, as well as Imperials and Brettonians. That way you shift away dfrom the Empire and the Sigmars Heirs repeat problem. It would also be fun for somebody to develop part of the Border Princes into a believable small, dark and gritty state in which to base PC's.



#16 Herr Arnulfe

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:47 AM

There are still tons of areas to explore within the Empire. Sigmar's Heirs provided a 5-10 page overview of each province, but many hugely important areas were covered in a single paragraph or two. A new edition could drill down into some of the important areas like the Middle Mountains or Forest of Shadows and open up whole new vistas of potential.

As I mentioned earlier, although RoS was pretty good, you could easily consense the essentials down to 50% of its pagecount, and write 128 pages of completely new magic content that would make people scramble for their wallets, and still have untapped Magic topics left over. It all comes down to whether GW would give them the green light. If GW's mandate prevents the publisher from covering anything that hasn't already been covered, we might as well pack in WFRP for good and just focus on fan material. For some reason though, I suspect GW would loosen the reins if they had confidence in the development team like they apparently do with 40KRP.

Also, keep in mind that for classic percentile WFRP, it's now been 8 years (and counting) between editions. That's a pretty long time by today's edition-treadmill standards.



#17 Kartigan

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 02:42 PM

Emirikol said:

I can't see FFG putting out anythign that would beat the hardcovers put out for 2e.  ToS, RoS, and ToC were simply unbeatable for sheer, usable, playable content.  FFG can't even put out flippin' dice, much less pull off anything beyond POD for this game anymore.  TEW was welcome, but it was their last hurrah and was a year behind schedule. Anyone thinking 4e will happen is smoking something in Amsterdam imho.

 

jh

This.

 

There is absolutely zero evidence whatsoever to suggest that FFG is making a Warhammer 3.5 or Warhammer 4.0.  In fact, all the evidence suggests the exact opposite.  If 3e hasn't sold well and they want to cancel it (which seems to be everyone's assumption), then why would they want to make another edition of a game that isn't selling well?  Furthermore, they've already reused the game's core mechanic into the Star Wars RPG, if anything that game is the closest thing to a Warhammer 4e we'll see from FFG.

Frankly, I expect the PoD structure to continue for awhile, maybe even with a box release every year or so.  However I do think they are about done with Warhammer 3e, and I see no evidence at all to suggest another edition in the works.  Honestly though I'm not that bothered by it.  Me and my group already have so much to explore with this game, at the rate we play if they didn't release another thing it would be at least a couple of years before we played through it all, let alone the fan made content (which is excellent).



#18 Johann Rowlocks

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:07 PM

The idea of a new edition is just silly. Zero evidence. They didn't put the nessesary resources into marketing the already excellent gane they had with 3e - to invest in a new edition would be silly. Bringing the various elements into an easily comprehensible product (with enough bits for more than three) and then investing in marketing - that would be a good idea!
And some flipping dice!



#19 Brand

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 05:01 PM

The lack of said flipping dice is the biggest problem, I think.  I actually looked into buying the Guides to try WFRP Lite not long ago but decided against it simply because I couldn't get any dice (apart from some that were horribly overpriced) without buying the box sets, too.



#20 Beren Eoath

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 07:43 PM

Brand said:

The lack of said flipping dice is the biggest problem, I think.  I actually looked into buying the Guides to try WFRP Lite not long ago but decided against it simply because I couldn't get any dice (apart from some that were horribly overpriced) without buying the box sets, too.

Don't try the Lite version - not worth it. It a horrible and unplayable mode of the game. You must write down on all cards from the book into the charcter sheet action list.

Did You all see the content of SW EotE RPG core rulebook? Wow, that's a big and good book. Why don't they do something similar to WFRP? let them make a revised edition at least with backward compatibility with 3e. A game that would allow players to play the game the way they want. So with no cards and with not to have to rewrite the cards into character sheets. I agre that W40k RPG are more popular but that's becouse they splited it into more systems. I don't know if it will work for WFRP but they could try. The second reason for a change would be to come back to more cllassical aproach to RPGs that could win back some fans of the WFRP 1 & 2 edition. The 3rd reason is that all new game are selling better and are gatting more attention from the publisher so they could go into new directions and expand the universe.

All of all I think thjat if FFG is planing something with 3e they would release something in 2Q 2013 they would announce it now. It all looks like FFG is not planing anything for 3e, maybe they giove us a POD (so a expensive small expansion) with other content that other way we would not see but nothing more.

Cheers

 

PS. Such content like the one From The Grave would be great in a vampire or Sylvania box but it looks like we will not see anything like it.






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