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#1 nimdabew

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:53 AM

Are there any glaring problems with this list besides being slow and only two ships? It is meant for maximum surviviability and maximum kill power at all time, but sacrifices mobility for survivability. I am seeing one tie per turn at least from the two ships, only if they can both survive.

 

 

Lando Calrisian - 44
Millenium Falcon - 1
Nien Numb - 1
Chebacca - 4
Expose - 4
Cluster Missile - 4
Proton missile - 4
 
Total - 54
 
 
 
Dutch Vandar - 23
Ion Cannon - 5
R2-D2- 4
Shield Upgrade - 4
 
Total - 36
 
 
Final total - 98
 
Lando gives a free action to Dutch, dutch gives Lando a target lock when getting one himself from his free target lock action. Lando uses expose at range one for 5 attack dice at range one, 360 degree firing arc, and Dutch uses his ion to pick the "next" Tie or Tie/In to kill next turn while using Focus to make sure that it hits. Both have high shields and hull, and Dutch has R2-D2 to at least survive an extra turn. I can't see Dutch surviving past turn three, so after that, it is Lando trying to kill as much as possible before the big W or dying. Ideas? Oh yeah, Alliance player gets the Initiative. 


#2 Right-Titan

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:02 AM

My gut tells me you're going to struggle against groups of ships.  If you ion a TIE, and are shooting it or another one, many lists will still have 3-5 more ships that can shoot you up.  I think you'll get outmaneuvered and hurt in a big with with only two ships on the board.

Heck if you just roll "Average" I don't know that it'll be enough, You're not throwing a lot of dice at range, and your missiles are one trick ponies.

Might be a lot of fun to try though.  I know I toyed (briefly) with the idea of two firesprays.



#3 Endgame124

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:31 AM

This is actually similar to a list I've been working out trying when wave 2 hits.  Tthe first big thing is that the Falcon can't take proton torps, so that saves you 4 points right there.  Honestly, by doing a little trimming you can cram an x-wing into the list, like this:

Lando
^Nien Nub
^Falcon

Dutch
^R2D2
^Ion Cannon

Rookie X-Wing
^R5

Alternatively, you can drop the X-Wing to an A-Wing and tank it up just a bit more

 

Lando
^Determination
^Nien Nub
^Chewie
^Falcon

Dutch
^R2D2
^Ion Cannon

Prototype A-Wing

 

I think list 1 might be slightly better, and its pretty hard to jam.  Dutch moves, and lets say he gets jammed and can't take an action.  Lando makes a green move, and gets jammed.  The green move triggers target lock on Dutch, which then triggers a target lock on lando.  Its not ideal, but you still end up with rerolls - if you don't get jammed, both dutch and lando shoot with target lock and focus, and if you ion something, the next round the X-Wing can probably get into range 1 and really light it up.



#4 nimdabew

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:11 AM

Being outmanueverd wouldn't be that big of a deal though. They both have 360 firing arcs, and both get target locks every turn, regardless of other outcomes. Picking off howlrunner or sontir fel in one turn? Valuable. The Falcon would be the one bringing most of the hurt, 3 base, 1 for expose, 1 for range 1 with target locks. I would find it hard for any fighter to survive more than two turns. It is just an idea that I have been kicking around. I don't have a falcon so I couldn't see the upgrades, but I thought it was one missle system, two crew, one pilot upgrade.



#5 Endgame124

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:12 AM

nimdabew said:

Being outmanueverd wouldn't be that big of a deal though. They both have 360 firing arcs, and both get target locks every turn, regardless of other outcomes. Picking off howlrunner or sontir fel in one turn? Valuable. The Falcon would be the one bringing most of the hurt, 3 base, 1 for expose, 1 for range 1 with target locks. I would find it hard for any fighter to survive more than two turns. It is just an idea that I have been kicking around. I don't have a falcon so I couldn't see the upgrades, but I thought it was one missle system, two crew, one pilot upgrade.

As far as I know (I don't have any wave 2 stuff yet), there is only 1 icon for missiles on the falcon, and none for proton torps (they are different icons).   So you could take at most 1 missile (concussion, homing, assault, or cluster).  



#6 COM 2D

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:06 AM

Doesn't Expose leave the Falcon with no Defense dice? I have a feeling that this might do badly against a swarm list.



#7 hothie

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:57 AM

COM 2D said:

 

Doesn't Expose leave the Falcon with no Defense dice? I have a feeling that this might do badly against a swarm list.

 

 

I have a feeling you're correct for a number of reasons.

1. A swarm list will have at minimum 5 TIEs. With asteroids on the table, if you hit 1 asteroid, it's likely you'll stay on that asteroid until you're dead, especially if you're trying to take green maneuvers. With pilot skills of 6 and 7, having initiative won't matter at all, as I'll move most of my ships before you do, so I can effectively block you onto an asteroid and keep you there until you're dead. With 1 defense die, it doesn't take nearly as long as you think to take down the falcon, especially with Dutch being your other ship, who isn't much of a threat. If the Falcon is sitting on an asteroid, who cares if it has a target lock or not?

2. Even if you do stay away from asteroids, I can still block you, preventing you from taking actions during your Perform Action step.  If I can block the Falcon, no Expose, no Focus, etc.

3. And you also have to stay close together. Flying the Falcon takes practice, so I can definitely see an occasion when Dutch will move right into the Falcon's path, especially if I try to herd him that way.

3. Your list is predicated on doing green maneuvers with the falcon, which makes you highly predictable. Which makes blocking you much easier.

4. If you do get to take an action with the Falcon, and you use Expose (instead of focus as you have mentioned), you now have 0 defense dice. Which means every single TIE hit will do damage to you, including crits.

5. Both of your ships have Agility 1. Even with high hull and shield values, you will take lots of damage, and crits will be even more effective.

6. Even if your list works exactly as you have planned, you're still getting one big shot per round. A swarm relies on many shots accumulating, so losing 1 TIE per round will mean the others are still getting their shots off, and refer to 4 and 5 above to see how much damage you'll be taking.

7. Oh, and remember, any secondary weapons on the Falcon have to be fired using the front firing arc. The Falcon excels because its primary weapon is 360. It's strength is that it can fly any direction and still have a target. I tend to not use secondary weapons on it for just that reason.

 

IMO, running the list with the Rookie Xwing will be better, as now you have another threat that will do damage as well as the Falcon. That list will win more than your 2-ship list.


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#8 hothie

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:59 AM

sorry, double post


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#9 Right-Titan

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:21 PM

 

The more I look at it, the more it bugs me I think…

 

First, as previously mentioned, using expose means you're going to get shattered the in the follow up.  Your own self declared plan is to weather the storm and kill a tie a round, but if I come at you with even 5 TIEs, and you manage to tie one up and kill another, I've still got 3 shooting at you and you with no defence dice.

Part of the bigger problem though is that your millenium falcon is illegal.

Your point total is way off to begin.  It's 62 points as you've listed it, not 54… now that's fine because your total at the end is still right, but as mentioned, you can't take proton torpedoes on a falcon. So take that off, and you're a 58 point falcon.  I'd also drop expose, since it leaves you dead in the water.

If you're intent on a two ship tank, I'd go with Elusiveness, and an engine upgrade, which brings you up to 60, and an even 100.

 

When I meant you are very outmaneuverable, I am aware that the falcon hits 360 degrees, as does the ion turret at range 1-2.  With wave two coming, what I mean by outmaneuvered is that I think you'll find ships that can sit outside range 3 one turn, and the very next be hitting your Y-Wing with big attacks at range 1.

Guys like Soontir Fel, Turr Phennir, Mauler Mithel with Wave 2 Upgrades like Engine Upgrade and Expose come to mind.  Without your ion-wing, you've just got a Falcon and then it'll be even harder to deal with now that you can't crowd control them at all.

I think the biggest problem I see is that Y-Wings don't put out a ton of firepower, and while yes they have 360 arcs, there are only two arcs and one of them is limited to range 1-2.  That's what I think will be easy to outmaneuver.  You have good arcs, just not enough of them, and on your "heavy hitter" you need to reduce your defence to quite literally 0 to really hit hard with consistency, since missiles are a one shot deal.



#10 COM 2D

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:15 PM

hothie said:

 

2. Even if you do stay away from asteroids, I can still block you, preventing you from taking actions during your Perform Action step.  If I can block the Falcon, no Expose, no Focus, etc.

 

 

You know, my first thought when I saw this list was how easy it would be to block the Falcon. Then, after realizing that Expose left it with no defense dice and that no matter how many dice it rolled it could only kill one TIE fighter a turn, I came to the conclusion that blocking the Falcon is exactly what I wouldn't want to do.

I would want to encourage it to use Expose as often as possible, trading fire at range 1 whenever I could. With no defense dice, the Falcon will take an average of 1 damage from every TIE shooting at it, and those numbers only go up when the TIEs use Focus and attack at Range 1. The Falcon could easily be destroyed in two or three such passes, and even if a TIE is lost in each pass, I would still have at least half my force to deal with the lone Y-Wing whose unique ability has been completely nullified.



#11 Endgame124

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:25 PM

hothie said:

 

I have a feeling you're correct for a number of reasons.

1. A swarm list will have at minimum 5 TIEs. With asteroids on the table, if you hit 1 asteroid, it's likely you'll stay on that asteroid until you're dead, especially if you're trying to take green maneuvers. With pilot skills of 6 and 7, having initiative won't matter at all, as I'll move most of my ships before you do, so I can effectively block you onto an asteroid and keep you there until you're dead. With 1 defense die, it doesn't take nearly as long as you think to take down the falcon, especially with Dutch being your other ship, who isn't much of a threat. If the Falcon is sitting on an asteroid, who cares if it has a target lock or not?

2. Even if you do stay away from asteroids, I can still block you, preventing you from taking actions during your Perform Action step.  If I can block the Falcon, no Expose, no Focus, etc.

3. And you also have to stay close together. Flying the Falcon takes practice, so I can definitely see an occasion when Dutch will move right into the Falcon's path, especially if I try to herd him that way.

3. Your list is predicated on doing green maneuvers with the falcon, which makes you highly predictable. Which makes blocking you much easier.

4. If you do get to take an action with the Falcon, and you use Expose (instead of focus as you have mentioned), you now have 0 defense dice. Which means every single TIE hit will do damage to you, including crits.

5. Both of your ships have Agility 1. Even with high hull and shield values, you will take lots of damage, and crits will be even more effective.

6. Even if your list works exactly as you have planned, you're still getting one big shot per round. A swarm relies on many shots accumulating, so losing 1 TIE per round will mean the others are still getting their shots off, and refer to 4 and 5 above to see how much damage you'll be taking.

7. Oh, and remember, any secondary weapons on the Falcon have to be fired using the front firing arc. The Falcon excels because its primary weapon is 360. It's strength is that it can fly any direction and still have a target. I tend to not use secondary weapons on it for just that reason.

 

IMO, running the list with the Rookie Xwing will be better, as now you have another threat that will do damage as well as the Falcon. That list will win more than your 2-ship list.

 

 

I disagree with #1 completely, given that the list involves Nien Nunb.  Thats at least 4 different maneuvers that are green (I'm not sure whats on the falcon's dial), but even if only there are only 4 green options with Nien, that is still going to take at least 4 ties to guarentee the falcon stays on the asteroid.  On top of that, to get those ties lined up like that, its highly likely that most of them being out of arc to fire at the Falcon.  The green maneuver is still going to give dutch a target lock for free at the very least, and with all the ties lined up nice and orderly, Dutch might be able to pull off a range one Target Lock + focus shot, and those can take down ties pretty fast.  

Regarding #4, you probably would only expose after you've passed the flight of ties and have some (most?) of them in a posisition where they can't shoot you. At that point you might as well expose because you're not going to take much incomming fire.  Of course, I've never played a 2 ship list, so maybe the ties can easily keep the falcon in arc all game.  



#12 hothie

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 04:52 PM

COM 2D: I would rather not give him the option of focusing or using Expose, or since he put the MF card on it, Evade. I would assume that he wouldn't use Expose at all, but that he would Focus or Evade. If he uses Expose, all the more better for me.

Endgame: you have to be familiar with the Falcon's movements, and where it can land after a collision. With the large base, it has a very limited area to land in without hitting something, especially when asteroids are Range 1 away from each other, and if I have a minimum of 5 ships, I can maneuver them to where you'll stay on that asteroid for 2 rounds or more. As a matter of fact, I did that very thing in my last game. My opponent landed the Falcon on the asteroid. I attacked it with my swarm, and it didn't get to attack back. Next round, I maneuvered and blocked it so that it stayed on the asteroid. Again, it didn't get to attack. Then I took more shots with my swarm and finished it off. Granted I was rolling well, and he was rolling poorly, but that's exactly how the game went. I have every confidence I could do so again. I believe he got 1 shot off the entire game with the Falcon before I destroyed it.


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#13 Picasso

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:44 PM

 

Hothie,

You know I agree with you on this.  Having a Falcon since November and playing with it at least two games a week since getting it, I'm finally to a point where I am comfortable flying it.  You NEED to play the big ships a bunch of times before you are used to it.  For a long time I thought Lando was the end all be all support pilot of the game.  When I had to play against him for the first time I did what Hothie talked about and blocked Lando's moves.  The base of the Falcon is so big that you can stager your low pilot skill fighters and block that four straight move with as little as two ships.  This keeps the large base ships where you want them, point blank in front of multiple ships.  

As for expose, over rated and highly situational.  In all honesty you are better off with Marksmanship.  High chance at a crit and it will modify the gunner's attack if you miss as well.  The only way I've used Expose well is with a squad leader where I was able to give Wedge Expose and a Focus.  It is nasty but hard to pull off.  I watched my opponent shoot everything at Luke with squad leader instead and only got the combo off twice.  

Currently I'm running this list

2 rookie pilots

Han + Chewie + Gunner + Marksmanship

 

I'm going to run it most of tomorrow except for when I use Arvel.



#14 COM 2D

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:48 PM

 

hothie said:

 

COM 2D: I would rather not give him the option of focusing or using Expose, or since he put the MF card on it, Evade. I would assume that he wouldn't use Expose at all, but that he would Focus or Evade. If he uses Expose, all the more better for me.

 

 

Assuming he wouldn't use Expose is probably the safest assumption. However, my thought is that if someone buys the highest costed Elite Pilot Talent in the game, then they're going to be itching to use it. Of course they will probably only make the mistake of using it once.



#15 Endgame124

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:28 PM

hothie said:

COM 2D: I would rather not give him the option of focusing or using Expose, or since he put the MF card on it, Evade. I would assume that he wouldn't use Expose at all, but that he would Focus or Evade. If he uses Expose, all the more better for me.

Endgame: you have to be familiar with the Falcon's movements, and where it can land after a collision. With the large base, it has a very limited area to land in without hitting something, especially when asteroids are Range 1 away from each other, and if I have a minimum of 5 ships, I can maneuver them to where you'll stay on that asteroid for 2 rounds or more. As a matter of fact, I did that very thing in my last game. My opponent landed the Falcon on the asteroid. I attacked it with my swarm, and it didn't get to attack back. Next round, I maneuvered and blocked it so that it stayed on the asteroid. Again, it didn't get to attack. Then I took more shots with my swarm and finished it off. Granted I was rolling well, and he was rolling poorly, but that's exactly how the game went. I have every confidence I could do so again. I believe he got 1 shot off the entire game with the Falcon before I destroyed it.

Shame I haven't seen any of the large base models then outside of Gen Con.  So far I've very rarely been blocked by enemy ships, but I can see how the larger base could cause a problem in theory.  I guess if the obvious move is to go 4 straight, then a 2 hard right would land you out side of their arc and in prime posistion to use expose and vaporize a tie.



#16 Duraham

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:10 PM

yes, and because the hard 2 is not a green maneuver, you would lose out on lando's effect



#17 hothie

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 02:35 AM

Endgame124 said:

 

hothie said:

 

COM 2D: I would rather not give him the option of focusing or using Expose, or since he put the MF card on it, Evade. I would assume that he wouldn't use Expose at all, but that he would Focus or Evade. If he uses Expose, all the more better for me.

Endgame: you have to be familiar with the Falcon's movements, and where it can land after a collision. With the large base, it has a very limited area to land in without hitting something, especially when asteroids are Range 1 away from each other, and if I have a minimum of 5 ships, I can maneuver them to where you'll stay on that asteroid for 2 rounds or more. As a matter of fact, I did that very thing in my last game. My opponent landed the Falcon on the asteroid. I attacked it with my swarm, and it didn't get to attack back. Next round, I maneuvered and blocked it so that it stayed on the asteroid. Again, it didn't get to attack. Then I took more shots with my swarm and finished it off. Granted I was rolling well, and he was rolling poorly, but that's exactly how the game went. I have every confidence I could do so again. I believe he got 1 shot off the entire game with the Falcon before I destroyed it.

 

 

Shame I haven't seen any of the large base models then outside of Gen Con.  So far I've very rarely been blocked by enemy ships, but I can see how the larger base could cause a problem in theory.  I guess if the obvious move is to go 4 straight, then a 2 hard right would land you out side of their arc and in prime posistion to use expose and vaporize a tie.

 

 

If you look at my point #1 again, you'll see I did add "especially if you're trying to take green maneuvers." As Duraham said, 2 turn is not a green maneuver. And yes, there are enough movements that the Falcon has that you could get away from my blockers. I will grant you that. But this list is made for the teamwork between Lando and Dutch. One single ship forcing you to do a 2 turn has just nerfed the concept of the squad.

And as Picasso and I (and others) have seen, flying the Falcon is, how shall I say, very difficult to get your optimal movement every time. It definitely takes practice, not only flying with it, but also knowing where to land to block it. He and I and Zachbunn have been flying the Falcon since November. So when you do get yours (hopefully next week), you'll start to see what we mean. There is definitely a learning curve with flying the large base ships, both for and against them.

And hey, if you want to run this list, knock yourself out and have fun. I'm just writing down what I think will happen if I run a swarm against this list. I could be wrong.


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#18 R5Don4

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 05:58 AM

Picasso said:

 

 

.  The only way I've used Expose well is with a squad leader where I was able to give Wedge Expose and a Focus.  It is nasty but hard to pull off.  I watched my opponent shoot everything at Luke with squad leader instead and only got the combo off twice.  

 

 

 

Wow, what 10 Skill Pilot did you put Squad Leader on so that it would work with Wedge, who is a nine?  Squad Leader only works on lower skilled pilots.  Lando, Garven or Dutch however would give you the same effect.


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#19 Picasso

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:40 PM

Sorry you are right. It was a long night of gaming. I was using Garven. I asked my opposition and it was Garven.  I was drinking a bit too.



#20 hothie

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:43 PM

Picasso said:

Sorry you are right. It was a long night of gaming. I was using Garven. I asked my opposition and it was Garven.  I was drinking a bit too.

Of course you were! Xwing is a drinking game after all…:P


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