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Slave 1 and Torpedoes


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#1 Grimwalker

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:36 AM

So, I've been given to understand that Torpedoes on Rebel ships are a waste of points, because it's a one-use weapon and it's not at all unlikely to get little to no effect.

 

Just wondering, since the Slave-1 mod card gives you a Torpedo slot, is that calculus changing?  A torpedo against the Millenium Falcon or a Y-Wing is likely to be a pretty good body blow.  Is the game starting to be worth the candle?



#2 Herrgeist

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:50 AM

I still think Heavy Laser Cannon on Firespray is better since you can use it more than once and it doesn't require Target Lock. 



#3 mrfroggies

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:53 AM

I think it might be worth it for Krasses.  His ability to reroll a die for a secondary weapon might make it worth it.  That being said, for 3 pts more you can get a Heavy laser and roll 4 attack dice all game long.  I doubt people are going to run PT on the firespary.



#4 Grimwalker

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:23 AM

It can take both HLC and PT….



#5 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 04:09 PM

The short answer is no.

The long answer is that if you don't have a spare action to buff them, Homing Missiles are better. If you do have a spare action to buff them, Concussion Missiles are better. The only way out is to find a way to buff them without an action.

As mrfroggies said, they'll be okay on Krassis. Otherwise I can't really see a good reason to mount them on a Firespray. 



#6 Grimwalker

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:31 PM

Then what the heck is the point?  Is this just bad game design that they just put something out that's just plain sub-optimal?

 



#7 Duraham

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:57 PM

Grimwalker said:

 

Then what the heck is the point?  Is this just bad game design that they just put something out that's just plain sub-optimal?

 

 

 

 

game balance. in the sense that imperials now have something that can use proton torpedoes. anyway, i get the idea that the FFG people seem to like proton torpedoes a lot, and i do admit that it isnt that bad when fired by itself, just that the concussion and homing is way better



#8 Grimwalker

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 02:03 AM

So why not bring one of each? Did I miss where you were limited to one or the other if your pilot bar has both icons?



#9 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 03:37 AM

Grimwalker said:

Then what the heck is the point?  Is this just bad game design that they just put something out that's just plain sub-optimal?

 

Well, there is a school of game design (at least in RPGs) that deliberately includes trap options in order to force players into learning the fundamental mechanics of the game. I'm not sure that's what they're doing with X-wing, but I can't think of another reason for the existence of Expose. However, I think what's going on with PTs is that the designers like critical hits much more than I do. 

PTs do produce additional crits, with their little pseudo-Marksmanship effect--if you fire both a PT and Concussion with Krassis, for instance, with no additional buffs, on average they'll deal the same number of damage cards but the PT will turn an extra one face-up. The reason I still prefer Concussion Missiles is that their extra effect combines much more gracefully with regular Focus.

And you certainly can use both; I wouldn't because at that point you've spent 8 points to use a relatively unreliable weapons system twice. At that cost the Heavy Laser Cannon looks like a better (and slightly cheaper) buy to me. 

I should also note that it's perfectly possible that I'm missing something important here. I've been struggling since the Kessel Run to understand why you would want to take torpedoes on something that can already carry missiles and a cannon, and I'm not assuming that my lack of an answer means there isn't one out there.



#10 hothie

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 04:20 AM

Strictly my own opinion, but I think since they had the Millenium Falcon title card, they needed to add the Slave 1 title card. They give the MF title card the Evade action. I can see that, as the Falcon was modified to be more elusive to attacks. What to do with the Slave 1 title card? The game designers see the Firespray as a weapons boat, tricking it out with HLC, mines, missiles. Hey, why not give it proton torpedoes as well? And I'm sure SOMEWHERE in the canon that the Slave 1 uses PT's, and they didn't want the fanboys saying,"The Slave 1 clearly uses proton Torpedoes in the 3rd cel on page 28 in this comic book, so why didn't you give it the Proton Torpedo slot?" I give credit to the FFG researchers for finding that somewhere and ioncorporating it into the game.

I would agree that I don't necessarily think it's the best option for a secondary weapon, but the game designers just gave us another option, and options are good. I'm sure you'll see someone at a tourney run the Slave with PT's, if for no other reason than they can.

And two things to keep in mind, all of these secondary weapons that you trick the Slave out with can only be used in the front firing arc. No 360 degrees for the Ion Cannon. The real trick is maneuvering the Firespray in order to use the secondary weapons, especially missiles/PT's, because you need a Target Lock to do so, which means you need an action, and there are currently many ways of keeping the Firespray from taking its action during the Perform Action step (collisions, asteroids, red maneuvers). Like others have said, Squad leader will help mitigate this. One of the reasons the HLC's work best is that you don't need an action to use them, unlike Missiles and torps (Target Lock), or Proximity Mines.

So, in order to use the PT's, you have to do all of these things:

1. Avoid collisions (unless you're getting an action from Squad Leader)
2. Avoid asteroids, both in moving through them and landing on them.
3. Not have a stress token
4. Use your action for Target Lock
5. Have the Target locked ship in your front firing arc
6. Have said ship at range 2-3.
7. Then you can use your Proton Torpedo. Which, since you've spent your Target Lock, you don't get to reroll any of your dice, unless you're Krassis, in which case you get to reroll 1.
8. Then the defender gets to defend.

And given all of this, I think Shadowjak's tables have shown that the expected number of hits for a proton torpedo is less than 2, so you're on average not going to kill anything anyway.

And if you want to make the case for obtaining a Target lock in a previous turn and using a Focus, you have to go through this list again in order to do so. It's a lot of hoops to jump through for a 1-trick pony that has little chance for actual damage.

This is why most people say the Heavy Laser Cannon is better. The Range is the same, the number of dice is the same, the firing arc is the same. The differences are that you don't need an action to use the HLC (big, big difference), you won't get a crit with the HLC (unless you have a mercenary copilot, and the general consensus is that crits aren't that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things), you can reroll your dice with the HLC if you do have a Target Lock (which is necessary for the PT as well), and you can use the HLC mulitple times (another big, big difference). The HLC is 7 points vs 4 for the PT. That's a small investment for a big difference in usage.
 



#11 Picasso

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:14 AM

 

Something I learned in playing yesterday.  Proton Torpedoes are Falcon killers.  Once the shields are gone those crits can stack up quick.  After playing the Falcon ALL day yesterday, the only game I struggled was against the Slave One.  Also PTL helps get those torps off with a focus.  I think the Slave One was designed to be a shield killing ship and a large ship killer. 

Also I’ve found the Torpedoes are much better in scenario games and not straight up dogfights.  The scenario that comes with the Slave One allows for Rebels to have two pilot upgrades on a ship.  This can be huge because you can use PTL and fire those torps with Marksmanship dishing out two crits instead of one.

All this being said, I hardly ever take torps.



#12 Blitz RS

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:55 PM

I think my biggest problem is that the Millenium Falcon title grants the YT-1300 an ability that can be used turn after turn….but more importantly does not come with an extra charge. The Slave I title has an extra 4pts attached to it.

As hothie pointed out, there are a LOT of conditions that need to be met in order to use said torps…and again, you had to buy them. I honestly think that the Slave I title should have simply been a free proton torpedo. It is still a use use item after all.



#13 ScottieATF

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:28 PM

Blitz RS said:

I think my biggest problem is that the Millenium Falcon title grants the YT-1300 an ability that can be used turn after turn….but more importantly does not come with an extra charge. The Slave I title has an extra 4pts attached to it.

As hothie pointed out, there are a LOT of conditions that need to be met in order to use said torps…and again, you had to buy them. I honestly think that the Slave I title should have simply been a free proton torpedo. It is still a use use item after all.

You think that Slave 1 should have granted a free 4 point upgrade?  I'll agree that clearly (with only one torpedo option out right now) the Falcon is the better title.  But it costs a point and requires you to use the action.  I can't really view you suggestion of a free torpedo as anything but a jest to be honest.  I just don't think you can be serious.

 



#14 Grimwalker

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 12:47 AM

I don't know about jest, but it would be nice if the "Slave 1" title card wasn't objectively terrible. Maybe an extra pilot skill slot?



#15 Picasso

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 01:04 AM

The title card is fine. The slave one is the only ship that can have every upgrade, well except for R2 units.  It is the most costamizable ship as it should be.



#16 Disgruntled

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 03:46 AM

Maybe the title will be useful when a different kind of torpedo is released






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