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Wave 2 upgrades ruining the game…. Opinions and thoughts.


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#1 LedZep

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:46 AM

Hey!

 

I am really exited for the release of wave 2 but for weeks my only thought about it is how the players will react to wave 2 ships. Don you guys get tired of playing against the same type of ships and upgrades because "its the best combination?" From what ive gather there are a lot of people pondering about using vader with the engine upgrade to have 1 boost action and then daredevil for the second action making him one of the most difficult ships to evade/attack.  So im guessing engine upgrade will be the new r2-d2/bigs combo…

My point is, people will start using new ships and new upgrade because they think are better and over use them…and it will get a little annoying. Its like the time people found out Y wings can be really usefull against tie fighters…but then again… 100 point game with 2 Y wings gets really borring and annoying if the player gets good rolls…just drifting arround every other round. (I have yet to experience this but ive seen it on videos and it kind of sucks…)

Im not hating against them, I really want to try interceptors. But unlike other people I really play with both factions althou I preffer X wings. Its just like dust tactics where the new units make the older ones obsolete in terms of efficiency and point cost.

I have to be gratefull that I play with my GF and she makes teams based on what she thinks is a good combination for the purpose and not on what she reads online…

I can only imagine seeing tie interceptor swarms and falcons everywhere for the first 2 months.

Now that I told you how I feel…tell me.

What are you most exited and what are your fears of wave 2 hitting the store in 2-4 weeks?



#2 Picasso

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:15 AM

I don't fear wave two. My favorite list right now is three X-wings and I have all the wave two ships.  I think wave two gives you more options that compete against other builds. 



#3 chromag33

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:21 AM

I've had my two core sets for almost three weeks now and love them.Looking forwords to the slave-1 and the A-wings, now we have some diversity with the second wave.  



#4 afilter

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:23 AM

Picasso said:

 

I don't fear wave two. My favorite list right now is three X-wings and I have all the wave two ships.  I think wave two gives you more options that compete against other builds. 

 

Exactly!  If you are playing 100pt games there is only so much you can fit in a build.  The new options just mean that people are trying new conmbinations and will be less predictable for awhile.

I still like my 3 X-wing build as well and adding stealth to Biggs with R2/D2 can be a big boost.  I only have Slave 1 so far, so we have not been able to experiment to much, but I am definately looking forward to Wave2 ships arrivng.

This game is like many CMG games and it will continue to grow and mature as time goes on which is a good thing as it prevents it from becoming stagnent and people losing interest.  IMO from what I have seen so far Wave 1 ships will still be very competitive and wave 2 has not broke anything.  For every upgrade you add you have to give something up, there will just be more combos to choose.



#5 LedZep

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:46 AM

Maybe im paranoid or maybe is the people I see playing where I live. Thing is I can see diversity at the moment, but with wave 2 ill see everyone using the same upgrades to take advantage… I know its me… I just like playing and experimenting and not using the same squad always… I guess its just me and my RPG OCD. XD



#6 COM 2D

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:12 AM

LedZep said:

Maybe im paranoid or maybe is the people I see playing where I live. Thing is I can see diversity at the moment, but with wave 2 ill see everyone using the same upgrades to take advantage… I know its me… I just like playing and experimenting and not using the same squad always… I guess its just me and my RPG OCD. XD

 

I think, if anything, it'll ultimately have the opposite effect. More choices in ships, pilots and upgrades will lead to greater diversity. Which is better? 2 Alpha Interceptors or three Academy TIEs? I suspect different people will have different opinions.



#7 Emrico

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 08:25 AM

LedZep said:

Maybe im paranoid or maybe is the people I see playing where I live. Thing is I can see diversity at the moment, but with wave 2 ill see everyone using the same upgrades to take advantage… I know its me… I just like playing and experimenting and not using the same squad always… I guess its just me and my RPG OCD. XD

I've been able to play both with and against all of the Wave 2 ships and upgrades since the KRE and am seeing the exact opposite of what you're worried about. The build variety has expanded dramatically and the Wave 2 upgrades are far from game-breaking. I'm not worried about Wave 2 at all and am extremely excited for it to finally arrive!

Jim


Rebels: 3 YT-1300s, 6 X-Wings, 6 Y-Wings, 6 A-Wings, 6 B-Wings, 4 HWK-290s,10 Z-95s, 3 E-Wings, 2 GR-75s, 1 CR-90
Imperials: 8 TIEs, 4 TIE Adv, 12 TIE Interceptors, 3 Firesprays, 6 TIE Bombers, 5 Lambdas, 3 TIE Defenders, 4 Phantoms

#8 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:47 AM

LedZep said:

I am really exited for the release of wave 2 but for weeks my only thought about it is how the players will react to wave 2 ships. Don you guys get tired of playing against the same type of ships and upgrades because "its the best combination?" From what ive gather there are a lot of people pondering about using vader with the engine upgrade to have 1 boost action and then daredevil for the second action making him one of the most difficult ships to evade/attack.  So im guessing engine upgrade will be the new r2-d2/bigs combo…

My point is, people will start using new ships and new upgrade because they think are better and over use them…and it will get a little annoying. Its like the time people found out Y wings can be really usefull against tie fighters…but then again… 100 point game with 2 Y wings gets really borring and annoying if the player gets good rolls…just drifting arround every other round. (I have yet to experience this but ive seen it on videos and it kind of sucks…)

Im not hating against them, I really want to try interceptors. But unlike other people I really play with both factions althou I preffer X wings. Its just like dust tactics where the new units make the older ones obsolete in terms of efficiency and point cost.

I have to be gratefull that I play with my GF and she makes teams based on what she thinks is a good combination for the purpose and not on what she reads online…

I can only imagine seeing tie interceptor swarms and falcons everywhere for the first 2 months.

Now that I told you how I feel…tell me.

What are you most exited and what are your fears of wave 2 hitting the store in 2-4 weeks?

I have lots of responses, but I want to seize on one point in particular: Vader + Daredevil + Engine Upgrade as the "new R2-D2/Biggs" combo. The thing is that R2-D2 and Biggs are a bad idea together: Artoo doesn't do much against concentrated fire, which is exactly what Biggs is designed to attract.

You might disagree, and we might both have good arguments to support our point of view--which is one of the nice things about this game. It's well balanced enough that I think it will expand nicely to include the new content without eclipsing old content. I don't know anything about Dust Tactics, but you can have my X-wings when you pry them from my cold dead hands, and vanilla TIE fighters are still going to be a regular feature at my tables.

I don't like people who look up lists online and then thoughtlessly throw them into play without attempting to understand what they are, why they work, and what customizations or alternatives might suit their playstyle--and in my experience those players get destroyed by thoughtful and skilled players. Wave 2 isn't going to change that.



#9 LedZep

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:11 AM

I thought I wrote wedge. I meant wedge.

And that is exacly what I am talking about.

Althou, you dont need to be good at the game to win with an online winning team. At least not if where you play people actually think about what they choose and end up loosing because they like to have fun instead of maxmising your squad points to play with a pre-generated squad. I only hope that the players around my area think like you guys do. Great community like I always say… Thanks for the replys. 



#10 hothie

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:36 AM

Oh, I'd have to say that Vorpal Sword definitely has a point. It's not just the squad, it's how you play it. When I played my Worlds squad, I didn't lose a match, and I lost very few ships in 5 games. i don't think I lost more than 2 in a game. At the very first Kessel Run I attended, my very first match was against that same exact squad. I beat him completely and didn't lose a single ship. You can pull a list from the web, but you do need to analyze it to really see why it's effective and how to play it well in order to succeed with whatever squad you use.

Will Wave 2 ruin the game? On the contrary, it will inject new life into this game. Many of us have been playing against the same Wave 1 squads for months, and the game is getting stale. The Kessel Runs helped to whet our appetites for the next Wave releasing. New ships mean new combinations and variety. With Wave 1 tournaments, you basically saw a small handful of truly competitive squads. I've been building Wave 2 squads for months, and I'm still finding new combinations that I think will be competitive. What will be the top squads after Wave 2 is released? Who can say? If you have 20 people attending a tournament, I bet you won't see the same squad repeated. And I'm excited for that.

Plus, now average gamer walking into your LGS won't just see Xwings and TIEs, now he'll see the Millenium Falcon and Slave 1. Now there are Awings and TIE Interceptors, and just the look of those ships will make people curious about this game. Then you see some people playing with those ships and having fun, and the seed is planted. Wave 2 will bring new people into this game. Not ruin it.

 



#11 LedZep

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:56 AM

Its true. Im just generalizing. Not all players play just to win. 

 

ps: Wave 2 upgrades ruining the game (for me). That why I asked for opinions about thoughts and fears about wave 2.



#12 MikeT

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:39 PM

LedZep said:

Its true. Im just generalizing. Not all players play just to win. 

 

ps: Wave 2 upgrades ruining the game (for me). That why I asked for opinions about thoughts and fears about wave 2.

 

If adding options to an existing game without removing or eclipsing the existing options ruins the game for you then you should probably limit yourself to something like Chess.

 

Complaining about people using options that synergise well together in a game explicitly built around being rewarded for choosing and using different options well together is asinine at best.



#13 Picasso

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:56 PM

 

I agree with Hothie 100%.  I lost to him at worlds in the semi final match.  Our lists were similar but different.  During the Kessel run I faced Hothie's list three times and each time I destroyed it because the guy I was playing had no clue what to do with it.  In my area I try to play at different stores to see what other people are playing.  I've found that no store fields the same lists as other stores.  What I think will happen in Wave 2 is you will see lists diversify because of options.  I'm lucky in that I have at least one of every Wave two ship from Kessel runs.  It has allowed me to try out COUNTLESS different options.  I have not played the same list in weeks and I play almost every day.  I am a huge fan of running two A-wings.  I'm a bigger fan of running Han with Marksmanship.  I have not run Vader since Worlds I may play him again soon but I do not see Vader pimped out to the 9s as a must have in every list.  For every list I've played I've found a counter even for my nasty X-wing list.  My counter for Vader is a Falcon with gunner and Marksmanship.  All the maneuvers in the World won't get you out of that 360-degree shooting crits with almost every roll.  The great thing about this game is it is about player skill not a list you build.



#14 LedZep

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:07 PM

MikeT said:

 

LedZep said:

 

Its true. Im just generalizing. Not all players play just to win. 

 

ps: Wave 2 upgrades ruining the game (for me). That why I asked for opinions about thoughts and fears about wave 2.

 

 

 

If adding options to an existing game without removing or eclipsing the existing options ruins the game for you then you should probably limit yourself to something like Chess.

 

Complaining about people using options that synergise well together in a game explicitly built around being rewarded for choosing and using different options well together is asinine at best.

 

 

 

Not complaining about people using their options, worried about people using the same combos and about people forgetting about wave 1  tie fighters. Read my post so you can see that Im talking about my own opinion and fears and Im asking about what you like or dislike about wave 2. No need to go "I AM AN INTELIGENT ELITIST PLAYER AND IF YOU CANT HANDLE X WING THEN  GO PLAY CHESS"

If you pay wargames you know what im talking about. New miniatures making old ones obsolete. 

Like I said before, I was generalizing about players. Not everybody has a huge gaming community with nice people. Or a huge gaming community at all. Imagine getting to your gameplace and everyone using the same fighters efectively or inefectively… That is what im worried about…having to play against the same millenium falcon/slave or heroes with the same upgrade cards. Its really boring to always play agains the one hero 3 rookie x wings, or against a swarm of ties and howlruner. Player after player just using the same squad… The responses put my mind at ease.

Im not asking for a discussion. Im asking for the things you are exited about and what you fear about wave 2. Simple as that.

Again if you did not read, I am NOT HATING, nor COMPLAINING. Just posting MY frustration with the little community I play with. 

Again this>>> ps: Title: Wave 2 upgrades ruining the game (FOR ME).

That why I asked for opinions about thoughts and fears about wave 2.



#15 blkdymnd

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:49 PM

It's the way most combo based games evolve.  Players latch onto a few combos, and when the new set comes out, they latch onto the next set of combos.

i can't agree with our Dust Tactics assessment though, I still play very successfully with my armor 2 infantry based lists.  It's all in how you use stuff.



#16 ScottieATF

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:10 PM

LedZep said:

MikeT said:

 

LedZep said:

 

Its true. Im just generalizing. Not all players play just to win. 

 

ps: Wave 2 upgrades ruining the game (for me). That why I asked for opinions about thoughts and fears about wave 2.

 

 

 

If adding options to an existing game without removing or eclipsing the existing options ruins the game for you then you should probably limit yourself to something like Chess.

 

Complaining about people using options that synergise well together in a game explicitly built around being rewarded for choosing and using different options well together is asinine at best.

 

 

 

Not complaining about people using their options, worried about people using the same combos and about people forgetting about wave 1  tie fighters. Read my post so you can see that Im talking about my own opinion and fears and Im asking about what you like or dislike about wave 2. No need to go "I AM AN INTELIGENT ELITIST PLAYER AND IF YOU CANT HANDLE X WING THEN  GO PLAY CHESS"

If you pay wargames you know what im talking about. New miniatures making old ones obsolete. 

Like I said before, I was generalizing about players. Not everybody has a huge gaming community with nice people. Or a huge gaming community at all. Imagine getting to your gameplace and everyone using the same fighters efectively or inefectively… That is what im worried about…having to play against the same millenium falcon/slave or heroes with the same upgrade cards. Its really boring to always play agains the one hero 3 rookie x wings, or against a swarm of ties and howlruner. Player after player just using the same squad… The responses put my mind at ease.

Im not asking for a discussion. Im asking for the things you are exited about and what you fear about wave 2. Simple as that.

Again if you did not read, I am NOT HATING, nor COMPLAINING. Just posting MY frustration with the little community I play with. 

Again this>>> ps: Title: Wave 2 upgrades ruining the game (FOR ME).

That why I asked for opinions about thoughts and fears about wave 2.

 

None of what you are saying makes much, if any, sense and has nothng to do with the title of the thread.

 



#17 elfholme

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:26 PM

LedZep said:

Im not asking for a discussion. Im asking for the things you are exited about and what you fear about wave 2. Simple as that.

I'm confused.  How is that not asking for a discussion? 

I don't fear anything in Wave 2.  I'm very excited to be getting other W2 ships to play alongside my Slave 1 and W1 ships.  I've enjoyed great success with the Firespray, which most here seem to think is a terrible ship.  I've played against all the other W2 ships too.  I'm a big Han Solo fan, and I love Baron Fel, so I'm pretty pumped for the release to finally get here!



#18 Cid_MCDP

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:22 AM

LedZep said:

Hey!

 

I am really exited for the release of wave 2 but for weeks my only thought about it is how the players will react to wave 2 ships. Don you guys get tired of playing against the same type of ships and upgrades because "its the best combination?" From what ive gather there are a lot of people pondering about using vader with the engine upgrade to have 1 boost action and then daredevil for the second action making him one of the most difficult ships to evade/attack.  So im guessing engine upgrade will be the new r2-d2/bigs combo…

My point is, people will start using new ships and new upgrade because they think are better and over use them…and it will get a little annoying. Its like the time people found out Y wings can be really usefull against tie fighters…but then again… 100 point game with 2 Y wings gets really borring and annoying if the player gets good rolls…just drifting arround every other round. (I have yet to experience this but ive seen it on videos and it kind of sucks…)

Im not hating against them, I really want to try interceptors. But unlike other people I really play with both factions althou I preffer X wings. Its just like dust tactics where the new units make the older ones obsolete in terms of efficiency and point cost.

I have to be gratefull that I play with my GF and she makes teams based on what she thinks is a good combination for the purpose and not on what she reads online…

I can only imagine seeing tie interceptor swarms and falcons everywhere for the first 2 months.

Now that I told you how I feel…tell me.

What are you most exited and what are your fears of wave 2 hitting the store in 2-4 weeks?

 

I think in all likelihood, you are going to see a ton of Falcons and Interceptors the next couple of months. They're the most accessible ships in Wave 2. Now, whether or not they'll stick around is another question entirely. 

I think the thing that makes X-Wing inherently more playable over an extended period of time than most other miniatures games is that it does actually take some skill. If I can move and maneuver better than you can, I'm going to win unless I've got a purposely terrible list. So much of the focus in this game lies with the player and their ability to maneuver and manage their Pilot Rank- much more so than picking the right list. The more I play it, the more I stand by that remark. 

I've said it on other threads around here, but folks have to get their head out of 40k and into X-Wing. The list still matters to be sure, but it doesn't matter nearly as much. You're not going to be 80% more likely to win regardless of what I've brought simply because you have a Falcon on the table. There isn't a Draigowing in X-Wing, or the equivalent of a Necron flyer list. If you end up overlapping with that Falcon every turn because you can't fly it, you're going to die. It's that simple. And you can have Interceptors with Stealth devices all you want, but it's still possible for an Rookie X-Wing to one-shot that dude. That's something I think a lot of people are forgetting or simply not realizing- there isn't going to be an Interceptor Swarm list. At least not with any decent Pilot Talents or high PR anyway like the current TIE Swarm affords. They're more expensive than TIEs, and still don't have shields, so you can't just be throwing them around willy-nilly and expect them to win.

 As for what I'm excited about- new models obviously, and the potential for some really interesting builds. I'm looking forward to there not being a permanent dominant meta, and I'm looking forward to finding ways to defeat whatever the temporarily dominant meta might be. 



#19 LedZep

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:02 AM

Cid_MCDP said:

LedZep said:

 

Hey!

 

I am really exited for the release of wave 2 but for weeks my only thought about it is how the players will react to wave 2 ships. Don you guys get tired of playing against the same type of ships and upgrades because "its the best combination?" From what ive gather there are a lot of people pondering about using vader with the engine upgrade to have 1 boost action and then daredevil for the second action making him one of the most difficult ships to evade/attack.  So im guessing engine upgrade will be the new r2-d2/bigs combo…

My point is, people will start using new ships and new upgrade because they think are better and over use them…and it will get a little annoying. Its like the time people found out Y wings can be really usefull against tie fighters…but then again… 100 point game with 2 Y wings gets really borring and annoying if the player gets good rolls…just drifting arround every other round. (I have yet to experience this but ive seen it on videos and it kind of sucks…)

Im not hating against them, I really want to try interceptors. But unlike other people I really play with both factions althou I preffer X wings. Its just like dust tactics where the new units make the older ones obsolete in terms of efficiency and point cost.

I have to be gratefull that I play with my GF and she makes teams based on what she thinks is a good combination for the purpose and not on what she reads online…

I can only imagine seeing tie interceptor swarms and falcons everywhere for the first 2 months.

Now that I told you how I feel…tell me.

What are you most exited and what are your fears of wave 2 hitting the store in 2-4 weeks?

 

 

 

I think in all likelihood, you are going to see a ton of Falcons and Interceptors the next couple of months. They're the most accessible ships in Wave 2. Now, whether or not they'll stick around is another question entirely. 

I think the thing that makes X-Wing inherently more playable over an extended period of time than most other miniatures games is that it does actually take some skill. If I can move and maneuver better than you can, I'm going to win unless I've got a purposely terrible list. So much of the focus in this game lies with the player and their ability to maneuver and manage their Pilot Rank- much more so than picking the right list. The more I play it, the more I stand by that remark. 

I've said it on other threads around here, but folks have to get their head out of 40k and into X-Wing. The list still matters to be sure, but it doesn't matter nearly as much. You're not going to be 80% more likely to win regardless of what I've brought simply because you have a Falcon on the table. There isn't a Draigowing in X-Wing, or the equivalent of a Necron flyer list. If you end up overlapping with that Falcon every turn because you can't fly it, you're going to die. It's that simple. And you can have Interceptors with Stealth devices all you want, but it's still possible for an Rookie X-Wing to one-shot that dude. That's something I think a lot of people are forgetting or simply not realizing- there isn't going to be an Interceptor Swarm list. At least not with any decent Pilot Talents or high PR anyway like the current TIE Swarm affords. They're more expensive than TIEs, and still don't have shields, so you can't just be throwing them around willy-nilly and expect them to win.

 As for what I'm excited about- new models obviously, and the potential for some really interesting builds. I'm looking forward to there not being a permanent dominant meta, and I'm looking forward to finding ways to defeat whatever the temporarily dominant meta might be. 

 

Thats exacly what I feel. People picking up best teams and not knowing how to use them makes the game really boring. 



#20 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 08:58 AM

Picasso said:

 

I agree with Hothie 100%.  I lost to him at worlds in the semi final match.  Our lists were similar but different.  During the Kessel run I faced Hothie's list three times and each time I destroyed it because the guy I was playing had no clue what to do with it.  In my area I try to play at different stores to see what other people are playing.  I've found that no store fields the same lists as other stores.  What I think will happen in Wave 2 is you will see lists diversify because of options.  I'm lucky in that I have at least one of every Wave two ship from Kessel runs.  It has allowed me to try out COUNTLESS different options.  I have not played the same list in weeks and I play almost every day.  I am a huge fan of running two A-wings.  I'm a bigger fan of running Han with Marksmanship.  I have not run Vader since Worlds I may play him again soon but I do not see Vader pimped out to the 9s as a must have in every list.  For every list I've played I've found a counter even for my nasty X-wing list.  My counter for Vader is a Falcon with gunner and Marksmanship.  All the maneuvers in the World won't get you out of that 360-degree shooting crits with almost every roll.  The great thing about this game is it is about player skill not a list you build.

 

hi P. id be very interested in your rebel build that uses two A-Wings. i honestly think rebel players underrate them, possibly as i did with the y-wings when i first started playing with them. i was like 'why play a defebsive/support ship whan i can just play another x-wing with more firepower?' practice with them showed me how good they really are, esp vs tie-fighters.


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

Lord Vader





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