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Cost Reductions - Gylbert Farwynd


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#1 HastAttack

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:51 AM

I need a bit of clarification on costs / cost reductions

 

My oponent has Gylbert Farwynd - GotC F7 - "The cost to play non-Noble cards cannot be reduced."

 

I have my agenda HOUSE OF DREAMS – ArotD F119 and my chosen locaton is DORNE – PotS F31

Due to the agenda, the location gains "Immune to opponents' non-plot card effects."
 

Dorne states

Marshalling: Kneel Dorne to choose 1 Trait. Until the end of the phase, reduce the gold cost for you to marshall cards with that Trait by 1.


I assume that I can still use Dorne as it is immune to Gylbert's text (so the CANNOT is not even seen)

 

I'm also wondering whether the different cost reduction texts mean much

Some cards state "lower the cost", some state "reduce the cost" and Dorne is specifically "reduce the gold cost"

So I am thinking that Dorne is not reducing the cost to play, it is reducing the actual gold cost of a card before it is played .. and therefore would not be affected by Glybery even without the agenda protection

 

When dealing with other characters such as STARFALL CAVALRY – MotA F91

"Reduce the cost to play Starfall Cavalry by 1 for each House Dayne character you control"

The reduction is not a response so is this still blocked by Glybert … I assume it is blocked but not sure

 

thanks

 

 

 

 

 



#2 ktom

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:21 AM

HastAttack said:

I assume that I can still use Dorne as it is immune to Gylbert's text (so the CANNOT is not even seen)
Incorrect. Farwynd does not affect the reducer, he affects the card that is being reduced. The card you are playing is the one that needs to be immune to Farwynd - and none of them are.

Look at it this way: You attack with The Red Viper. I defend with a a couple characters, then play Kingsmoot Support (choose 3 characters, one gets +1 STR, the second gets +2 STR, the third gets +3 STR), bumping the STR of my defenders. Does the attacking, event-immune Viper get to ignore those +X STR modifiers on the defenders when resolving the challenge? No, because the event didn't do anything directly to him. Your Dorne/HoD/Farwynd situation is exactly the same - Farwynd is not doing anything directly to Dorne, so it's immunity doesn't change your inability to reduce the cost of cards you play. 

HastAttack said:

I'm also wondering whether the different cost reduction texts mean much

Some cards state "lower the cost", some state "reduce the cost" and Dorne is specifically "reduce the gold cost"

There is no difference. "Lowering" a cost and "reducing" a cost are the same thing, so anything that prevents you from doing one prevents you from doing the other. There is no "technicality" or "loophole" to exploit here.

HastAttack said:

When dealing with other characters such as STARFALL CAVALRY – MotA F91

"Reduce the cost to play Starfall Cavalry by 1 for each House Dayne character you control"

The reduction is not a response so is this still blocked by Glybert … I assume it is blocked but not sure

The way that cost reduction (or lowering) works is that when you go to play the card in question, you look for all applicable modifiers, combine them with the base (usually "printed") cost of the card. The result of the calculation is the cost you pay. Whether an applicable modifier is created by triggering a Response to create a lasting effect or some other effect written on the card itself, the process doesn't change. Farwynd's ability effectively stops yo from including all "downward" modifiers into the calculation of cost - again, no matter how that modifier was created.

Short answer: no matter how you spin it, Farwynd screws your HoD/Dorne/House Dayne deck.



#3 HastAttack

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:35 AM

Thanks - my oponent will love the response … I was worried it was going to be a case of where the immunity ends

I'll just have to remove his icons and then use Poisened Spear on him

 

So there is no difference between Reduce the Cost and Reduce the Gold Cost?

A couple of other questions if I may:

Is the Alliance agenda also affected by Gylbert - that refers to "ignore the out of house penalty" … which I assume is not a reducer, the penalty just doesn't apply and therefore Glybert has not affect on the agenda text

Glybert refers to non-noble cards - I'm not aware of any non-character cards that have crests … his text definately means all cards and not just characters though?



#4 Ratatoskr

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:46 AM

HastAttack said:

Glybert refers to non-noble cards - I'm not aware of any non-character cards that have crests … his text definately means all cards and not just characters though?

Yep. No reduction of locations and attachments while he's in play.



#5 ktom

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:35 AM

HastAttack said:

So there is no difference between Reduce the Cost and Reduce the Gold Cost?
Correct. "Reduce the cost" will (almost - I'm sure there's some weird combo or set of circumstances I'm no thinking of) always refer to "gold cost." If something would reduce some other kind of cost - like influence - it will say "reduce the influence cost."

HastAttack said:

Is the Alliance agenda also affected by Gylbert - that refers to "ignore the out of house penalty" … which I assume is not a reducer, the penalty just doesn't apply and therefore Glybert has not affect on the agenda text
That is the correct result. Here's how it actually works, though. When you initiate an action - including playing a card when you are the active player in marshalling - you do the following (in order):

  1. Determine the type of cost that will be paid (think of those events that let you kneel characters or influence to pay their cost)
  2. Check the play restrictions (to make sure it is legal to play the card)
  3. Apply all applicable penalties to the cost (including anything that specifically modifies those penalties)
  4. Apply cost modifiers
  5. Pay the costs
  6. Choose the targets

At that point, the card/effect is "officially" initiated.

Farwynd prevents cost reducing/lowering modifiers from being applied in #4. But he doesn't stop modification of penalties, like the OOH gold penalty, in #3. So the Alliance agenda modifies the penalty (by ignoring it) before Farwynd even exerts his influence.

(By the way: the fact that penalties are applied to the cost before the modifiers are is also the reason that modifiers to the (total) cost can actually "counterbalance" gold penalties.)






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