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Stormbolters with metal storm shells vs. Hordes


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#1 Reclusiarch

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:56 AM

Hello everyone!

Ok, so I'm fairly certain this has been discussed before, but the search engine hates me (I actually think it was trying to kill me). After some manual searching (with no luck) I have decided to start this topic!

So, my Salamander player decided to get his hands on a Stormbolter; an awesome weapon all around! To do some more damage vs. hordes and to complement our Lascannon totting Devastator, the Salamander decided to requisition some Metal Storm Rounds.

Now, during their next battle the Salamander decided to fire his Storm Bolter at a rather large horde of charging Ork boyz, and did significant damage to them with his first volley. We were all pretty amazed! However, I wanted to make sure we did it right, because it seems very powerful vs. hordes (which, I guess, is the meaning of Metal Storm Rounds).

The Salamander's BS is 44, and with some additional bonuses goes up to 64. He fires semi-auto, adding a additional +10%. The Orks are 70 meters away, so no modifiers for range. The horde is Massive, giving a +30% to the roll. The horde ran in the previous turn, giving the Salamander a -20% penalty. The total BS adds up to 84%.

The Salamander rolls his dice and gets 40, giving him three hits (40, 60, 80). The Stormbolter counts all hits as two hits (due to the storm ability), making the hit total go up to six. The metal storm rounds adds Blast (2) to all hits, bascially doubling all hits (vs. hordes)and makes them go up to 12. At the end, the explosive damage adds +1 magnitude damage to the horde (not affected by Blast or Storm). This adds up to 13 damage.

Is my thinking correct? Did I miss anything or got anything mixed up?

Thanks in advance!

David



#2 KommissarK

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:35 AM

I don't have my book with me, but it looks like you got the modifiers right, the total hits right, the Storm mechanic right, the X damage right, and the blast/Metal Storm interaction right.

Just wait till the player gets Storm of Iron.

To be fair, the players are arriving at a point where hordes are there as cinematic speed bumps to display the awesomeness of space marines. Also, he has consumed some of his ammo.



#3 herichimo

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:35 PM

Double checked with the rulebook and errata and your math is indeed correct.

Your marine should have inflicted a total of 13 hits to the horde.



#4 Mindforge

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:06 PM

Reclusiarch said:

Hello everyone!

Ok, so I'm fairly certain this has been discussed before, but the search engine hates me (I actually think it was trying to kill me). After some manual searching (with no luck) I have decided to start this topic!

So, my Salamander player decided to get his hands on a Stormbolter; an awesome weapon all around! To do some more damage vs. hordes and to complement our Lascannon totting Devastator, the Salamander decided to requisition some Metal Storm Rounds.

Now, during their next battle the Salamander decided to fire his Storm Bolter at a rather large horde of charging Ork boyz, and did significant damage to them with his first volley. We were all pretty amazed! However, I wanted to make sure we did it right, because it seems very powerful vs. hordes (which, I guess, is the meaning of Metal Storm Rounds).

The Salamander's BS is 44, and with some additional bonuses goes up to 64. He fires semi-auto, adding a additional +10%. The Orks are 70 meters away, so no modifiers for range. The horde is Massive, giving a +30% to the roll. The horde ran in the previous turn, giving the Salamander a -20% penalty. The total BS adds up to 84%.

The Salamander rolls his dice and gets 40, giving him three hits (40, 60, 80). The Stormbolter counts all hits as two hits (due to the storm ability), making the hit total go up to six. The metal storm rounds adds Blast (2) to all hits, bascially doubling all hits (vs. hordes)and makes them go up to 12. At the end, the explosive damage adds +1 magnitude damage to the horde (not affected by Blast or Storm). This adds up to 13 damage.

Is my thinking correct? Did I miss anything or got anything mixed up?

Thanks in advance!

David

Yep. Looks right to me and we just had a thread on this in another thread about the Librarian being overpowered. Librarian powers pale in comparison to someone with Storm of Iron and a Storm Bolter with Metal Storm rounds. It came out the same way, they are pretty bad ass against hordes.
 



#5 Peem

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 01:32 PM

We too have run into the silly amount of magnitude damage a Storm bolter with the right ammo (Metal Storm) and talents (Storm of Iron) can do and decided to house rule this using the "doubling a double" convention used for instance by Power fists.

In essence we treat each "double" as "add again the base number". So in the Power fist example a character with a Strength bonus of 5 and Unnatural Strength (doubling the characters strengthbonus) and the power fists special rules that also doubles the characters Str bonus we would calculate it as 5+5+5 instead of 5x2x2 resulting in a score of 15 instead of 20. This is, I believe, how the rules are intended to be and how this forums have agreed upon (correct me if I am wrong).

We have applied this to the Storm Bolter to lessen its effect.

So per RAW a Storm bolter with the above ammo and talent would inflict hits as follows:
(In order: Maximum nuber of hits, Doubling for Storm weapon quality, additional hits for Blast(2) quality, Storm of Iron talent, Explosive extra hit)
4x2x2x2+1= 33 magnitude damage.

Per our house rule (same order):
4+4+4+4+1=17 magnitude damage.

We think this gives a more appropriate amount of damage. Just a thought for GMs with the same "problem".
 



#6 herichimo

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:17 AM

Sometimes, weapons designed to be very effective and devestating against a specific type of target are actually very effective and devestating against that specific type of enemy.

Just because something which is designed to work well against something does so, doesn't mean we should decrease its effectiveness to be closer to other things which aren't designed for the same purpose.

Played with a certain GM once and used my character's parry->counterattack->assassin strike combo to get out of a dangerous situation. He started to state it was 'unfair' I could evade enemies by using several thousands of XP worth of talents in conjunction like that. I told him my character was built for skill-based survival, had I not evaded out of combat, a single hit (imagine a power klaw, fist, or some other rare weapon being carried by every single enemy character…) would have hurt me significantly. Not being able to use the abilities I paid good XP for would get my character killed. He saw the light and relented.


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#7 aussieyobbo

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:58 PM

The way I read it and we run it in our games is, 3 hits, doubled for storm is 6, plus 2 hits for blast is 8 plus 1 hit for explosive shells.

try heavy flamer 1d5 + 8 (1/4 range rounded up), with clense and purify (1d5 hits) plus storm of iron, 20-28 damage per round to a horde.

 

Damaging a Horde

• Each hit that causes any amount of damage reduces a Horde’s Magnitude by one. Therefore, an attack that, after accounting for armour and Toughness Bonus, causes 15 points of damage reduces the Horde’s Magnitude by 1. The deliberate consequence of this is that sustained fire and blast weapons are much more effective against Hordes than weapons which fire only one shot; a lascannon is a weapon for destroying tanks not mowing down large numbers of infantry.

 

Damaging a Horde (page 359):  (+1 hit)

The sentence “Weapons that inflict Explosive Damage (X) gain a bonus against Hordes, and count as having inflicted one additional Hit”

should be changed to

“Weapons that inflict Explosive Damage (X) gain a bonus against Hordes, and count as having inflicted one additional Hit per Attack after all other Hits have been applied.”

Blast Weapons (+2 hits)

A Blast weapon that hits a Horde hits a number of times equalto its Blast value. So a grenade with Blast (4) will automatically hit four times if successfully lobbed into the Horde.

 



#8 revanant

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 12:17 AM

One important point--a hit may not necessarily cause damage.

 

It might be academic given that bolters put out a fair amount of damage with tearing, but there's a difference between causing a hit and actually dealing damage--only shots that hit and defeat armor and toughness will reduce magnitude. 

 

This is different from devastating damage (reduces magnitude for every hit, regardless of whether it dealt damage) and unrelenting devastation (directly causes magnitude damage).


Edited by revanant, 12 September 2013 - 12:47 AM.


#9 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 01:24 AM

True, however - assuming you're using the Living Errata stats for astartes bolt weapons (1D10+9 Tearing rather than 2D10+5 Tearing), that damage is automatic with most ammo types against most things that should be used in hordes.

 

That's a big part of the reason they made the change - it sped up fighting hordes immensely by removing the 'did I get three ones on the damage roll' step.

 

And yes, you can rack up some truly ridiculous magnitude damage.

 

The worst case I can realistically think of is a Tyrannic War Veteran Devastator:

 

  • Heavy Bolter - 6 Hits (easy enough to get with a good shot, short range, and a large horde)
  • Metal Storm Shells - x2, 12 Hits
  • Storm Of Iron - x2, 24 Hits
  • Unrelenting Devastation - +5, 29 Hits (okay, its +D5, but I said 'worst case')
  • Explosive-Type Damage - +1, 30 Hits
  • Slaughter The Swarm Tyrannic War Doctrine - +5, 35 Hits (it's + Perception Bonus, so +5 is not unreasonable)
  • Kill-Team Leader with Tactical Experience Distinction - +1, 36 Hits

I can't remember if there are any squad modes that enhance things further aside from 'free shots' from Bolter Assault and similar, but you get the idea...

 

Also note that whilst Metal Storm is awesome at crowd control, the inevitable Go-Go-Gadget Hellfire Shells do pretty much the same thing - unless I've got wires crossed, I seem to remember that in addition to the Righteous Fury effect, they also do an additional point of magnitude damage per hit.


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#10 revanant

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 12:26 PM

Hellfire shift the Heavy Bolter to a single shot weapon with blast (3) and devastating (1).

 

So, you would get:

 

Heavy bolter--3 Hits

Explosive--+1, 4 Hits

Slaughter the Swarm: +5, 9 Hits

Devastating--+9 damage, (9 Hits, 9 Dmg)

Storm of Iron--x2 (18 Hits, 18 Damage)

Unrelenting Devastation: +5 (8 Hits, 23 Damage)

Tactical Experience: +1 dmg, (8 hits, 24 damage=32 Damage if everything hits)

 

Separately, since Slaughter the Swarm and explosive boost hits with the weapon, shouldn't they come into play before we double the damage dealt with Storm of Iron?

---------------------

 

Thought Exercise with a standard Devastator:

 

Heavy Bolter--6 Hits (Requires +5 DoS)

Explosive--+1 Hit, 7 Hits

Metal Storm--x2, 14 Hits

Storm of Iron--x2, 28 Damage (if all hits damage)

Unrelenting Devastation, +5 damage

=33 Magnitude Damage 

(19 Damage before Storm of Iron, 12 damage w/o Metal Storm)

 

Missile Launcher--5 Hits (requires 0 DoS)

Explosive--+1, 6 hits

Devastating--+6 damage, 6 hits, 6 damage

Unrelenting Devastation: +5 Damage, 6 hits, 11 damage

=17 Magnitude damage

 

Technicallly, the missile launcher can top on another 6-12 damage to an adjacent horde/hordes, due to the 5 meter blast proximity. However, while it does the same amount of hits even at 0 DoS, its hits may not be guaranteed to do magnitude damage (2d10, Pen 4). Also, if allowing for scatter as per tabletop, the frag missile can miss and still hit. (is there an errata out there as to whether frag missiles scatter?)

 

So, on a good day, the missile launcher is a lot worse than an optimized heavy bolter once the devastator hits Rank 4. Before that point, it's a bit of a toss-up between burst/max damage (heavy bolter) vs. reliable damage/flexibility (missile launcher).


Edited by revanant, 12 September 2013 - 12:26 PM.


#11 herichimo

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 02:52 PM

Hellfire shift the Heavy Bolter to a single shot weapon with blast (3) and devastating (1).

 

So, you would get:

 

Heavy bolter--3 Hits

Explosive--+1, 4 Hits

Slaughter the Swarm: +5, 9 Hits

Devastating--+9 damage, (9 Hits, 9 Dmg)

Storm of Iron--x2 (18 Hits, 18 Damage)

Unrelenting Devastation: +5 (8 Hits, 23 Damage)

Tactical Experience: +1 dmg, (8 hits, 24 damage=32 Damage if everything hits)

 

Separately, since Slaughter the Swarm and explosive boost hits with the weapon, shouldn't they come into play before we double the damage dealt with Storm of Iron?

 

Your example is bit off. Most of it is correct, the following is just an overview for completeness.

 

First:

Explosive damage effects are added after ALL other hits are calculated.
Slaughter the swarm applies hits after all other modifiers for hits are calculated.
These three are added all at the same time, after any special rules, traits, or abilities which increase or double hits. 

 

Second, Devastating weapons deal the number in parenthesis in straight magnitude damage for every hit dealt. So this is applied after the number of hits have been calculated, but before damage is rolled on those hits.

 

Now that you've determined the number of hits you roll damage, hits dealing 1+ damage deal 1 magnitude damage to which you add the magnitude damage from devastating.

 

Now that normal magnitude damage is calculated you add:

Unrelenting devestation
Tactical experience

 

Storm of Iron DOES NOT APPLY, since firing a hellfire shot is not a Semi or Full Auto Burst attack.

 

Finally, Tactical Experience and unrelenting devestation applies last as addative modifiers are applied after multiplicative modifiers and as they are special abilities tacking on extra damage they apply after the normal attack.

 

Essentially you have 2 phases: calculate hits and any traits or effects caused by hits, then calculate magnitude damage and any traits or effects caused by magnitude damage. Remember addative traits or abilities are applied AFTER multiplicative modifiers.

 

So your example should have been:

 

3 hits

+1 for Explosive
+5 for Slaughter the Swarm (assuming your characteristic is 50+)

9 total hits

9 magnitude damage added to attack from Devastating trait

Roll damage for 9 hits (assuming all 9 deal 1+ damage)

18 magnitude damage to the horde from hits + Devestating trait

+1 bonus mag damage from tactical experience

+5 for Unrelenting Devestation (assuming you rolled a 9 or 10)

24 total magnitude damage. (13 without Slaughter or Tactical Experience)

 

The missile launcher is a little better than you give it credit for, first you've applied a talent to the hellfire shot you shouldn't and forgot talents which still apply to the missile shot (for fair comparison). Though there is not scatter on a miss for missile launchers in RPG, if you miss it goes sailing past forever or it hits a wall directly behind the target if your GM allows. Scatter is only for grenades, thrown, or other special cases.

 

5 hits
+1 Explosive

+5 from Slaughter the swarm (assuming characteristic 50+)
11 Hits (assume all do 1+ damage)

+11 Magnitude Damage from Devastating
+1d5 mag damage from Unrelenting Devastation (assuming 5)

+1 mag damage from Tactical Experience

28 total magnitude damage (17 without Slaughter of Tactical Experience)

 

Your example of a heavy bolter weilded by a dev with several anti-horde abilities and using specialized anti-horde ammo is obviously going to outperform anything else against hordes. Against heavier targets, especially with the -2 damage/pen of the metal storm ammo, this guy is going to have a harder time. If the horde takes cover making several hits fail to damage with the weaker ammo the amount of dealth decreases.

 

12 normal hits (perfect shot: 6 blast(2) hits)
**remember multiplicative modifiers are added BEFORE addative**
+1 explosive
(though I'd personally house rule this away, the rounds blow up several feet before hitting the target)
+5 slaughter the swarm (assuming characteristic 50+)

18 normal hits roll damage (assuming 1+ damage but with damage and pen reduced by 2 some probably fail to hurt)

36 magnatude damage from Storm of Iron

+1d5 Mag damage from Unrelenting Devastation (assumint a roll of 9 or 10)

+1 for Tactical Experience
42 total Magnitude damage (31 without Slaughter or Tactical Experience)

 

So the damage spread isn't quite that bad, but with specific tools tailored for the job it gets deadlier. Even with those tools a smart GM can still limit the pain (using cover or tougher enemies in the horde for instance). All the horde damage from metal storm rounds come mainly from the large number of hits. If those hits do not deal damage to the horde they don't do magnitude damage and therefore the do not get multiplied by the other talents. One hit failing to do damage in the last example woul drop mag damage by 2, if half fail to do any damage the final total is 23 magnitude damage.


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#12 revanant

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:13 PM

Thanks for checking my work :).

 

When I started my post, I was thinking to myself "Don't forget--single shot=no Storm of Iron."

 

When I got into the number crunching, I must have forgotten not to include the storm. :)

 

Personally, I just started a DW game with a Space Wolf Devastator. For fluff reasons, he's using a missile launcher instead of the heavy bolter. As rank 1, I'm glad to see he's not terribly behind the curve.



#13 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 02:10 AM

When I was talking about hellfire I meant the stormbolter rounds.

 

And yes, missile launchers are nasty. The main thing is that they're much, much more capable against bigger targets.  Bolter rounds just annoy a carnifex.






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