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#1 Corinos

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:37 PM

I know the response to this question will be quick and precise, but after tryingt o find the answer for a while I decided it was worth asking.

I've read that shadow cards, when they come out of shadows, can trigger their own When a card comes out of shadows responses.

Can someone show me the rules that support this?  It isn't intuitive to my meta, so I want to see where it is made clear.

Thanks,

 



#2 ktom

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:27 PM

Corinos said:

Can someone show me the rules that support this?  It isn't intuitive to my meta, so I want to see where it is made clear.
There isn't a rule anywhere that says "Shadow cards can trigger their own 'when a card comes out of Shadows' Responses" because it's basic to the timing structure. Bringing a card out of Shadows puts it into play - fully and completely. Once the card is in play fully and completely, it can trigger its abilities, including Responses.

There is nothing in the rules that says a card has to be "in play" when the Response opportunity is created in order to be triggered. If that were so, how do you explain event cards with Responses (which are never in play at all)? The Response oppotunity just needs to be valid when the Response is triggered.

If a card cannot Respond to itself coming out of Shadows, how would all of the self-referential Shadow cards work (including Shadow events) at all? Or, for examples of cards that are not self-referential being able to Respond to themselves entering play, take a look at Castellan of the Rock and Long Lances. 



#3 Corinos

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:09 AM

So you're saying that cards like the Long Lances can respond to themseves?

Again, it seems like they'd need to be in play before they could respond to something being put in play.

What you're saying is that putting something into play creates a response window and because the card is already in play, it can trigger it's response?



#4 Corinos

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:13 AM

I guess it seemed to me that something was coming into play until it was in play.  Once it was in play it could trigger it's responses, but once it is in play, it's no longer coming into play, so it wouldn't be able to trigger off it's own entering play.



#5 ktom

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:10 AM

 

Corinos said:

So you're saying that cards like the Long Lances can respond to themseves?
Yes. That is exactly what I am saying.

Corinos said:

What you're saying is that putting something into play creates a response window and because the card is already in play, it can trigger it's response?
Yes. That is the way this game works. When a Response window/opportunity is created, it stays open and available throughout the entire action window. The opportunity to Respond doesn't go away until the action window closes. As a result, you can play Responses in any order. You do not, for example, have to play all your Responses to winning/losing a challenge before you ever get a chance to play your Responses to claiming power for Renown. This is because each action window has a single step for all Responses - you don't even get a chance to Respond to winning/losing the challenge until the power for Renown has been claimed!

Corinos said:

I guess it seemed to me that something was coming into play until it was in play.  Once it was in play it could trigger it's responses, but once it is in play, it's no longer coming into play, so it wouldn't be able to trigger off it's own entering play.
You may want to read these Responses again. The Response is always worded "After a card comes out of Shadows…". So this idea that you Respond "as" the card is in the process of "coming out of Shadows" makes no sense to me. You Respond "after" the card comes out of Shadows - effectively to make sure that it actually does make it out of Shadows. 

So, since the Response opportunity, which stays open and available through the entire window, is created "after" the card comes out of Shadows, and the card itself is fully in play "after" it comes out of Shadows, what's the conceptual difficulty that the card that came out of Shadows is now in play, able to trigger its own Response, and staring at an available "after a card comes out of Shadows" Response opportunity?



#6 Corinos

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:23 AM

The difficulty is that the card was not in play when a card came out of shadows.  

It seems logical that a card would have to be in play at the begining of the action window for their ability to trigger a response.  

The fact that that's not the case is just confusing.

-=shrugs=-



#7 ktom

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 01:47 PM

Corinos said:

It seems logical that a card would have to be in play at the begining of the action window for their ability to trigger a response.  

 

The fact that that's not the case is just confusing.

-=shrugs=-

So what about all those Shadow cards that say "Response: After this card comes out of Shadows…"? If a card has to be in play at the beginning of the action window for its ability to trigger a response, how can cards that respond to themselves coming into play (by name) work?

See, I bet you trigger Responses like that without thinking twice when a card specifically refers to itself. When you think of it that way, it's really not that confusing when the card generally refers to itself, either.



#8 mdc273

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:20 AM

Corinos said:

The difficulty is that the card was not in play when a card came out of shadows.  

It seems logical that a card would have to be in play at the begining of the action window for their ability to trigger a response.  

The fact that that's not the case is just confusing.

-=shrugs=-

This won't be the first time, but I will say this, their rulings remain consistent. So while they can be confusing at first, they usually set a precedent that makes sense going forward. You'll just have to get used to some over-arching principles.



#9 Corinos

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:04 PM

So why have any cards at all that say "When this card comes out of shadows" if all cards are supposed to function that way?  It seems like this is a way of saying, "This isn't normally the case, but this card is an exception."

I just don't want to have to send new players to the internet for a ruling on something that should generally make sense to begin with.



#10 J_Roel

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:53 PM

There's a clear distinction between "When this card comes out of shadows…" and "When a card comes out of shadows…" They are quite different play restrictions, one responding to any card coming out of shadows (such as King's Landing (SaS)) and the other responding only to itself coming out of shadows (such as Young Griff (VD)). With King's Landing, you can stand it every time you bring a card out of shadows, ready to kneel to provide draw all over again.


"...and Balerion... his fire was as black as his scales, his wings so vast that whole towns were swallowed up in their shadow when he passed over head."


#11 J_Roel

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:59 PM

King's Landing was a bad example, as it is standing when it comes out of shadows and can't really respond to itself coming out. A better example would be The Queen of Thorns (TftRK), as she can claim power when she comes out initially, and again every time any card comes out of shadows. Anyway, hopefully you get the point; the reason some cards specifically say "…this card…" is that they are only to work when they themselves come out of shadows, unlike such cards as The Queen of Thorns and King's Landing.


"...and Balerion... his fire was as black as his scales, his wings so vast that whole towns were swallowed up in their shadow when he passed over head."


#12 ktom

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:37 AM

Corinos said:

So why have any cards at all that say "When this card comes out of shadows" if all cards are supposed to function that way?  It seems like this is a way of saying, "This isn't normally the case, but this card is an exception."
For the same reason some cards say "after you win a challenge" and other cards say "after you win a MIL challenge."

It's not like one is the normal case and the other is the exception when it comes to winning the challenge. It's that the play restrictions are different, creating a greater or fewer number of situations in which triggering the Response will be legal. That's the only difference on the Shadow card responses, too.



#13 LFenix

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:27 AM

Corinos said:

So why have any cards at all that say "When this card comes out of shadows" if all cards are supposed to function that way?  It seems like this is a way of saying, "This isn't normally the case, but this card is an exception."

I just don't want to have to send new players to the internet for a ruling on something that should generally make sense to begin with.

 

To give you a clear example, take a look t venomous blade. It´s text says:

 

House Martell only.
After Venomous Blade comes out of Shadows, attach it to a character you control. Then, choose and kill an opponent's character with printed STR 2 or less.

 

Making it trigger only when it comes out of shadows restricts the number of times you can use it. Otherwise I could take out several shadow cards to kill several characters and it´s strength would be overwelming… But as ktom says, it can be triggered after it comes out of shadows, otherwise it would make no sense at all!






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