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I like Black Crusade but….


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#1 weaver95

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 11:03 AM

…I really do wish there was a book detailing how Chaos ships and crews work.  I mean…I could borrow and/or corrupt the rules from Rogue Trader but it would always be missing something, ya know?  a book detailing just Chaos ships would be nice to see.

that said, I love everything else that's come out so far.  I can't wait to see the Slaneesh book and i've greatly enjoyed the two chaos god books that have come out so far.  even if i'm not running a BC game, everything in this setting is awesome for creating NPCs to use in my Rogue Trader games.



#2 Asoral

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:44 PM

I understand that coming from playing RT it would be nice to have stuff for Chaos ships. But the thin about Black Crusade is that it is centered on the characters, while in RT the ships are important characters in themselves. For BC I think a lot less intricate and top-down way of dealing with ships is more appropiate.

That being said, I think there might be something about ships in Tome of Excess, atleast hoping it would be so if it contains any descriptions of "heretic social circles" :D



#3 weaver95

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 05:27 AM

here's another problem I have - when trying to write adventures/plan a campaign for Black Crusade, I hit a wall.  let me see if I can explain…

 

when I run Rogue Trader, the party is usually trying to build something.  financial endeavors, colonies, trade routes, or what have you.  when I run Dark Heresy, the campaign is usually some variant of 'lets protect mankind' (granted they might go about it in some horrific fashion but still…).  Death Watch - same deal: find the alien, kill the alien, protect humanity.  easy peasy.  But when I try to write stuff for black crusade….the only thing I've got is 'lets trash other people's stuff'.    chaos should be able to build colonies, run starships, fight Xenos (and steal/use their stuff), do MORE than just 'smash down the imperials'.  doesn't chaos at least have SOME plan for what happens after they smash down the servants of the corpse god?  the dark mechanicus seem to be the only faction that wants to BUILD something…everyone else seem to just wanna smash things and break stuff ('cept slaanesh, who wanna have sex with everything).

 

I just seem hit a wall when it comes to writing things for black crusade.



#4 Cifer

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:14 AM

@weaver

Regarding the ships, just use RT rules and liberally reflavour things - the Navigator becomes a Sorceror, the morale-boosting cathedral a shrine to the dark gods and so on.

 

About the adventures, I'd suggest a more cooperative approach. For many people, Chaos is a tool. There are a few characters out there that are sufficiently corrupted so they want to further the glory of their deities for its own end - essentially, they have become hollow shells, avatars for their god's will. For most, however, Chaos is a tool and an extremely versatile (if obviously hazardous) one at that. So instead of looking at what the tool wants, why not look at what its wielders want? Why did the PCs turn to chaos? What are their motivations? Did they intend to liberate their homeworld from imperial oppression after their home was destroyed for harboring a harmless wyrd? Did they want to plunder and pillage and live a life of luxury? Did they want to become immortalized in legend and history as a powerful warlord rather than being forgotten as one of a billion soldiers dying for a meaningless world? Did they indeed want to become truly immortal as a Daemon Prince?

Black Crusade is generally not a game where you can write an adventure and plunk it down in front of the characters. Instead, I suggest creating a universe for the characters to explore and throw them perhaps a dozen plot hooks that you think might make for interesting stories. A colony chafing under the imperial rule, rebellion slowly forming, but having nothing to crystallize around. A freighter carrying the tithe collected from a world, laden to the brim with treasure. A powerful army of a rival champion slowly growing unruly because their leader seems too apathetic to lead them anywhere. A tome of forgotten lore detailing the location of a daemon world.

When they show interest in one, expand the universe in that direction. Since compacts are player-defined anyway, have them write up the framework of the adventure and fill it with life afterwards. Do they want to support the rebellion? Worm their way into the imperial bureaucracy and let the system collapse from within? Asassinate the governour, sabotage the military and see what remains standing after the whole thing plays out?

 

Essentially: Don't worry about having a perfectly choreographed plot your players will leap at. Just prepare the stage and let your players do the acting.



#5 weaver95

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:00 AM

Cifer said:

 

Essentially: Don't worry about having a perfectly choreographed plot your players will leap at. Just prepare the stage and let your players do the acting.

 

hmm.  that's good advice.  i'll try to keep that in mind.  thanks man!



#6 Plushy

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:47 PM

I feel like one of the newer Rogue Trader books - Navis Primer, maybe? - has rules for using sorcery and sacrifical rituals to navigate the Warp. I know Into the Storm has the rules for playing as a Reaver, and Hostile Acquisitions has some stuff you might like.


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#7 Elurindel

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:45 AM

When building a campaign, it's important to remember that Chaos is, by its very nature, diverse. Slaanesh isn't always about having sex with things, and Khorne is not just a mindless rage monster. The campaign I'm running right now has a party dropped in a system after they escaped a prison ship, and they got invovled with local politics and tried to carve out a niche for themselves around the worlds. They also chose to defend the system when a Tyranid Hive Fleet came to invade because they felt invested in the system there.

 

Here's some examples of Chaos worshippers who would be considered atypical, but still in line with the Chaos Gods:

For Khorne, you could have a noble warrior who favours martial skill above all, and will only subjugate or tax the defenceless until such time as they put up a fight. (Such an example exists in the fluff in the BC rulebook)

For Nurgle, you could have a mad doctor who keeps a pristine laboratory, except for the areas where he tests his new vile toxins and contagions upon his helpless subjects.

For Slaanesh, you could have a craftsman or warrior who absolutely devotes themselves to their art, always seeking perfection and seeing their past glories as old and dull in favour of the latest high.

For Tzeentch, you could have a naive rebel, not a schemer, but a pawn in the schemes of the Ruinous Powers, who believes that as long as he's devoted, everything going just as planned will work out for the best.

 

And while those aren't automatically what you think of when you think of devoted worshippers of those Powers, they're still perfectly viable.



#8 DigitalRedneck

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:36 AM

Cifer said:

@weaver

Regarding the ships, just use RT rules and liberally reflavour things - the Navigator becomes a Sorceror, the morale-boosting cathedral a shrine to the dark gods and so on.

 

About the adventures, I'd suggest a more cooperative approach. For many people, Chaos is a tool. There are a few characters out there that are sufficiently corrupted so they want to further the glory of their deities for its own end - essentially, they have become hollow shells, avatars for their god's will. For most, however, Chaos is a tool and an extremely versatile (if obviously hazardous) one at that. So instead of looking at what the tool wants, why not look at what its wielders want? Why did the PCs turn to chaos? What are their motivations? Did they intend to liberate their homeworld from imperial oppression after their home was destroyed for harboring a harmless wyrd? Did they want to plunder and pillage and live a life of luxury? Did they want to become immortalized in legend and history as a powerful warlord rather than being forgotten as one of a billion soldiers dying for a meaningless world? Did they indeed want to become truly immortal as a Daemon Prince?

Black Crusade is generally not a game where you can write an adventure and plunk it down in front of the characters. Instead, I suggest creating a universe for the characters to explore and throw them perhaps a dozen plot hooks that you think might make for interesting stories. A colony chafing under the imperial rule, rebellion slowly forming, but having nothing to crystallize around. A freighter carrying the tithe collected from a world, laden to the brim with treasure. A powerful army of a rival champion slowly growing unruly because their leader seems too apathetic to lead them anywhere. A tome of forgotten lore detailing the location of a daemon world.

When they show interest in one, expand the universe in that direction. Since compacts are player-defined anyway, have them write up the framework of the adventure and fill it with life afterwards. Do they want to support the rebellion? Worm their way into the imperial bureaucracy and let the system collapse from within? Asassinate the governour, sabotage the military and see what remains standing after the whole thing plays out?

 

Essentially: Don't worry about having a perfectly choreographed plot your players will leap at. Just prepare the stage and let your players do the acting.

yes. Love this. 



#9 Kiton

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 05:53 AM

Definitely as Cifer says.

In my experience, though that's perhaps more a matter of the groups themselves, Black Crusade games tend to result in "Drug-Addled Tentacle Rangers: Saviors Against Imperial Tyranny".

Or some odd LotR remake where they befriend the Balrog, Gandalf randomly explodes in the middle of some battle, and the entire quest is about Andragorn [and his servitor 'frode'] seeking the Eye of Necron so he can turn it into his Cruiser's ornamental prow.



#10 Cryhavok

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 12:40 PM

Elurindel said:

When building a campaign, it's important to remember that Chaos is, by its very nature, diverse. Slaanesh isn't always about having sex with things, and Khorne is not just a mindless rage monster. The campaign I'm running right now has a party dropped in a system after they escaped a prison ship, and they got invovled with local politics and tried to carve out a niche for themselves around the worlds. They also chose to defend the system when a Tyranid Hive Fleet came to invade because they felt invested in the system there.

 

Here's some examples of Chaos worshippers who would be considered atypical, but still in line with the Chaos Gods:

For Khorne, you could have a noble warrior who favours martial skill above all, and will only subjugate or tax the defenceless until such time as they put up a fight. (Such an example exists in the fluff in the BC rulebook)

For Nurgle, you could have a mad doctor who keeps a pristine laboratory, except for the areas where he tests his new vile toxins and contagions upon his helpless subjects.

For Slaanesh, you could have a craftsman or warrior who absolutely devotes themselves to their art, always seeking perfection and seeing their past glories as old and dull in favour of the latest high.

For Tzeentch, you could have a naive rebel, not a schemer, but a pawn in the schemes of the Ruinous Powers, who believes that as long as he's devoted, everything going just as planned will work out for the best.

 

And while those aren't automatically what you think of when you think of devoted worshippers of those Powers, they're still perfectly viable.

I quite agree with this sentiment. The extreme stereotypes of the chaos aligned are just that, extreme examples. Personally I encourage my players to break those molds. In one of my games there is a nurgle aligned apostate who is helping build the economic strength in the sector we are playing in. He is doing this because by building that strength he is also morally corrupting the governing bodies in the area. Not corrupting them to chaos, just morally turning them from good to expedience, then from that to full on greed. When he is done with the sector, its civilization will be in decay, and he will dedicate that decay to his god. Plagues and poxes will have nothing to do with it, but nurgle is the god of decay so it is appropriate. This is the kind of non-stereotypical character I like to see.

I have another player playing a thousand sons sorceror that has come to the conclusion that the ultimate homage to tzeentch and insult to the imperium would be for him to be responsible for succeeding at reviving the emperor himself. To that end he has abandoned his primarch and legion and formed an alliance with one of the necron dynasties, promising to help them raise the martian tomb from its slumber. While I dont think he will manage any of that, the player has told me he really just wants to make an epic, and epically annoying, recurring villain for my other games.

But please for the sake of all that is unholy, leave the generic characters to the npcs where they belong.

I also agree with others that BC is better play by letting the players form thier own plot. Pf course I think that is better in most games, but I think it also takes players who will do more that sit along for the ride. For the most part I personally despise GMs that try to railroad things. DW and OW are better for the "this is the plot, deal with it" type of GMing in my opinion.


#11 Asoral

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:04 AM

weaver95 said:

Cifer said:

 

 

Essentially: Don't worry about having a perfectly choreographed plot your players will leap at. Just prepare the stage and let your players do the acting.

 

 

 

hmm.  that's good advice.  i'll try to keep that in mind.  thanks man!

Exactly so. When GMing Black Crusade you have to understand the inherent difference between heroes and villains: while villains plan and act, heroes only have to react. Every classical villain vs hero movie/book/comic/story is just about how the good guys reacted and ultimately brought down some nefarious evil guys masterfully crafted plan. Such is the way of heroes: only thing they know how to do is destroy other peoples plans ;)

For a start of BC campaign it might be a good idea to put the players in some sort of iffy situation where you can somewhat know how they will act. After that its more of a thing to see where the Winds of Chaos take the story. Thats the main difference between the systems: in pretty much every other Warhammer game system the players are given orders from up high (much less of this in RT, but its still there) while BC is much more focused on the player characters and how they muscle their way to greatness.

I, for example, never thought that my players would want to start breeding the poor craftmanship digging workforce mutant-molepeople into a elite specialist fighting force :D



#12 El Cid

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:43 PM

weaver95 said:

 

here's another problem I have - when trying to write adventures/plan a campaign for Black Crusade, I hit a wall.  let me see if I can explain…

 

when I run Rogue Trader, the party is usually trying to build something.  financial endeavors, colonies, trade routes, or what have you.  when I run Dark Heresy, the campaign is usually some variant of 'lets protect mankind' (granted they might go about it in some horrific fashion but still…).  Death Watch - same deal: find the alien, kill the alien, protect humanity.  easy peasy.  But when I try to write stuff for black crusade….the only thing I've got is 'lets trash other people's stuff'.    chaos should be able to build colonies, run starships, fight Xenos (and steal/use their stuff), do MORE than just 'smash down the imperials'.  doesn't chaos at least have SOME plan for what happens after they smash down the servants of the corpse god?  the dark mechanicus seem to be the only faction that wants to BUILD something…everyone else seem to just wanna smash things and break stuff ('cept slaanesh, who wanna have sex with everything).

 

I just seem hit a wall when it comes to writing things for black crusade.

 

 

 

If I may throw a suggestion :

 

Chaos is all about one's path to Glory through Chaos .

 

It's the journey down the Left Hand Path .

 

You may have company , but , in the end , It's a lonely journey .

 

It is my firm belief that in a successful Black Crusade campaign the first and last ( and therefore greatest ) enemies of your players should be the players themselves . One against the other and everyone against him/herself . The personal struggle of the character as he/she sacrifices increasingly more down the path should offer an interesting roleplaying experience . Chainswords and meltaguns and awesome bikes and the inevitable collection of trampled imperial *spits* standards are only a pleasant bonus .

 

Nope , no measure of power will ever be enough , nor should it . Especially true for the Warriors of the Eternal War .

 

For the Glory of Chaos !



#13 Thaddux

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 02:30 PM

You are suddenly engulfed by a torrent of energy.  Leering faces and unearthly screams surround you as you are lifted off your feet.  Your head spins, and your internals organs protest as you are flung across space, time and sanity.

The deluge of madness subsides, and as the miasma clears you find yourself standing in what appears to be a cathedral.  Your head begins to clear and more details become apparent. 

Candles. 

Blood. 

Chanting.

The cathedral is desecrated.  Holy symbols defaced.  Familiar symbols are daubed in bodily fluids across the floors and walls.  Robed figures surround you.  One of them approaches.

"The Dark Gods have answered our prayers!" he cries.  "Our summons have been heard, and they have delivered their champions, to bring death to our oppressors!…



#14 Griautis

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:00 AM

Thaddux said:

You are suddenly engulfed by a torrent of energy.  Leering faces and unearthly screams surround you as you are lifted off your feet.  Your head spins, and your internals organs protest as you are flung across space, time and sanity.

The deluge of madness subsides, and as the miasma clears you find yourself standing in what appears to be a cathedral.  Your head begins to clear and more details become apparent. 

Candles. 

Blood. 

Chanting.

The cathedral is desecrated.  Holy symbols defaced.  Familiar symbols are daubed in bodily fluids across the floors and walls.  Robed figures surround you.  One of them approaches.

"The Dark Gods have answered our prayers!" he cries.  "Our summons have been heard, and they have delivered their champions, to bring death to our oppressors!…

 

so much win in this… must resist using it on my Dark Heresy players…. 






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