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Parrying The Implausible


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#1 ordo neriman

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 04:01 PM

I player in my campaign with his 28 strength was on the receiving end of an unnatural 55 strength ambull, before he even reacted i told him you can only dodge and not parry because y'know, LOGIC (an average man cannot stop the force of a 4metre tall insectoid's pincer aimed at his face with a hammer in one hand) of which he got mornge on because there's nothing in the rules about the logical limits parrying something far stronger than oneself and being a doing some form of martial arts started pulling out all this crap about ' it doesnt matter how strong you are, its how you direct the force of the incoming attack' of which i pointed out he's playing an adept with terrible weapon skill and this turned into a heated debate if you'd hadnt guessed already.

 

In short, can anyone else suggest or may have been in a similar situation and thought of house rules for the the limits of parrying things far stronger than oneself or even side effects of being hit by a towering monstrosity like being knocked flying?

 

I was thinking something like you can't parry opponents who's first digit on his strength stat is two above you're own (e.g someone with 33 strength cant parry someone with 52 strength). certain things may modify this such as having unnatural strength might mean you can parry someone with significantly higher strength or being a higher size category might mean that you'd count as having +10 to your strength for the purposes of parrying etc etc?



#2 Gunhead

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 09:28 PM

Your player is half right. The force needed to deflect the blow is less than the force generated by the incoming blow. In a parry, you're usually trying to make the opponent miss rather than trying to block the blow directly. This allows weaker fighter to parry blows from opponents who are a lot stronger than them. If the force of the attack is so great the defender cannot generate enough force to deflect the incoming blow, then the only thing to do is dodge, but this is also a part of a parry. When parrying you're trying to use your weapon to guide the weapon of the opponent away from you, while moving yourself out of the path of the blow.

System wise, I'd give a flat -10 or maybe -10 for every point of SB the attacker has over the defender to attempts to parry if the attacker has unnatural strength and the defender doesn't. Parry as a defence is inferior to dodge so I see no reason to nerf it more. The good thing about parry is that it's not a skill so all PCs can try it.

-Gunhead

 

 

 

 



#3 Darth Smeg

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 10:16 PM

Yes, a Parry is not a block. You do not stop the incoming weapon, you just nudge it to the side. A Parry is more like an assisted Dodge, really, but that's just complicating things.

I think I would have gone with a straight Parry as normal, mostly for simplicity, but also because parrying a probably slow-moving, easily seen, large thing that you can see coming is easier than parrying a fast-and-erratically-moving blade wielded at close range (in your face) by a determined opponent.

Later rulebooks give examples of difficulty modifiers to their skills, and Parry states:

"+30 Character can easily detect the attack and has at least a Round to avoid it. "

So there is room for argument saying this Parry should actully be EASIER, not harder, than a "normal" parry.

On the other hand, you can only Parry Melee attacks unless you have the Deflect Shot Talent, so you could rule it either way :)

Having said all that, you should remember above all other things the one inviolate rule. The rule that trumphs all others: The Rule of Cool.

Don't say No!. No is not fun. No does not contribute to story, fun or action. "Say Yes, or roll the dice". 

This is good advice. He want's to parry that piano? Let him try. At a penalty, if necessary, and at a consequence if he fails :)


Tarald - The Dark Lord of Smeg

You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on

 

My House Rules for using Only War (and more) for Dark Heresy games


#4 Alekzanter

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 05:42 AM

There is a nifty pdf, Apocrypha: Tyranids, that had some interesting ideas about this type of situation. Trying to Parry the crushing claws of a Carnifex? Good luck with that. The idead behind it, I think, is that a larger opponent benefits from its height advantage, not necessarily its strentgh. Something so big it towers over you and far exceeds your own reach. I've used it in my games since the release of Deathwatch.

The idea is as follows: A Size Average person will Parry another Size Average opponent's attack as a Challenging (+/-0) Parry Test. If that same Size Average person attempts to Parry an attack from a Size Hulking opponent the Parry Test is Difficult (-10), a Size Enormous oppnent makes the Parry Hard (-20), and a Size Massive opponent makes the Parry Very Hard (-30). Obviously, if your opponent is smaller, you get a bonus to your Parry Test that is commensurate to the Size difference (IE: When a Size Average person attempts to Parry an attack from a Size Scrawny opponent, the Parry Test becomes Ordinary [+10], and so on). 



#5 InquisitorAlexel

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:48 AM

Behind doing fights with real swords each week, I can tell you that even stopping dead an attack is not at all a problem (if he's got a sword, I'm speaking about sword); because the form of the blade and many other details in the making up of a sword are made to stop "anything", so yes, a guy with strenght 55 hitting a guy with strenght 28 wielding a sword could be blocked by the sword wearer; but in condition he succeds in his parry test. But you've got the unnatural strenght fact; then I don't know how such a big diffrence in strenght could affect normal laws of fighting conflict, but at first, the player that says "it depends on how you use your ennemy force" says the truth.

In my opinion, he should be able to block.



#6 Cymbel

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:51 AM

I like the idea of size modifying the parry bonus, it is mechanically simple, makes enough sense and won't come up or needs fancy calculations for every encounter



#7 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 10:44 PM

Gunhead said:

Your player is half right. The force needed to deflect the blow is less than the force generated by the incoming blow. In a parry, you're usually trying to make the opponent miss rather than trying to block the blow directly. This allows weaker fighter to parry blows from opponents who are a lot stronger than them. If the force of the attack is so great the defender cannot generate enough force to deflect the incoming blow, then the only thing to do is dodge, but this is also a part of a parry. When parrying you're trying to use your weapon to guide the weapon of the opponent away from you, while moving yourself out of the path of the blow.

System wise, I'd give a flat -10 or maybe -10 for every point of SB the attacker has over the defender to attempts to parry if the attacker has unnatural strength and the defender doesn't. Parry as a defence is inferior to dodge so I see no reason to nerf it more. The good thing about parry is that it's not a skill so all PCs can try it.

-Gunhead

Of course, because of their massive Strength and their Hulking size when in power armor, this means most human characters (assuming SB3) would have -80 to parry checks against Space Marines (Have fun in Black Crusade!). Indeed, their musculous might is so magnificent that most foes are immediately awestruck by their physique, allowing the noble Astartes to effortlessly cut through any foe. Thus it was that the Ultramarines 4th Company was ablie to seize the fortress world of Tingham III from the Blood Pact of Khorne, the supposedly-hardened traitor guardsmen unable to parry the Ultramarines' mighty blows. Trapped behind their own defences, the heretics quickly fell, allowing the Imperium to seize the world once again.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#8 FieserMoep

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 03:24 AM

I am not a fan of such modifications for they do not add something in terms of "enjoyment". At least rules for hulking trait etc. might seem plaussible but when a foe becomes that powerfull that he is a carnigex or what ever then the danger of recieving damage should be enough of a thrill. To reduce the block chance of a character further more should not be the goal for it is a rule change that is mostly only in favor of the npcs. If we want to make the combat system of DH somewhat realistic we have to change a lot more things than just the parry mechanics.

I for example understand it as part dodge/part block mechanic. To parry means to alter the original aim of the weapon and such there is only little force required to do so. Also you are not standing still, hoping that your weapon will be enough to deflect the enemies weapon alone. You also try to do a side step etc.






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