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"Improved" Talents


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#1 LukeZZ

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 06:48 AM

In many talent trees you can get the "Improved" version of a talent before taking the basic version.

Is this correct? What happens if you do so?



#2 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:37 AM

Good question.

Going strictly by RAW, you'd have spent XP on a talent you can't use in most cases, since things like Improved Stim Application refer to when you use the base talent.  So no Stim Application, then no using Improved Stim Application either.  It seems Improved Stunning Blow is an exception, since it doesn't reference Stunning Blow at all.

Though it looks like for most of the Improved versions of a talent, the trees are set-up in such a way that you can only get the Improved versions by taking the basic versions, such as Inspiring Rhetoric, Bodyguard, Scathing Tirade, or Hard-Headed.  And with the Beta Updates removing a fair number of "Improved" talents, it's kind of a moot point for most instances.  Not all, but most of them, with Improved Stim Application and Improved Full Throttle being the only ones you could possibly reach without having taken the basic version first (though it's bloody expensive XP wise to do so).

I suppose if you as the GM are feeling benevolent, you could let the PC treat having only the Improved version of a talent as though they had the basic version, until they get around to buying the basic version.


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#3 LethalDose

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:42 AM

LukeZZ said:

In many talent trees you can get the "Improved" version of a talent before taking the basic version.

Is this correct? What happens if you do so?

I think it's safe to assume there'd be no effect until the basic talent was taken.  Do you have some specific examples?

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#4 LukeZZ

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 01:18 AM

Improved Stim Application

Improved Scathing Tirade

Improved Full Throttle

(It still seems very strange to get the Improved version without having the base version.)



#5 LethalDose

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 07:27 AM


LukeZZ said:



 


Improved Stim Application


Improved Scathing Tirade


Improved Full Throttle


(It still seems very strange to get the Improved version without having the base version.)


 


 


All the talents above refer to the action granted by the base talent, e.g. "when performing Stim Application action …", "Each enemy affected by Scathing Tirade …", and " … to attempt Full Throttle…".  So without the base talent that's required to perform these special talented actions, the improved talents' effects simply can't activate.


I understand what you're saying, that it's odd that you can buy the improved talent without the basic talent (and the same is true for the "supreme" talents in some cases), but adding rules that disallow taking "Imroved X" talents without first taking "X" talents does just that: Adds more rules.  And this particular rule is probably unnecessary, because while you are correct in that it's possible to buy the improved talents like this, its not very likely to happen in practice because [I think] the cheapest path to each of the improved talents goes through the base talent* and the basic talents tend to be substantiallty cheaper than the improved talents, making them much easier to pick up before or after the improved talent is purchased.


So, yeah, it's wierd, but I don't think it's much of an issue.


-WJL


*There may be a few exceptions to this, but it was true of every path I could find


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#6 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:34 AM

LukeZZ said:

It still seems very strange to get the Improved version without having the base version.

It is strange, but that's simply one of the expected oddities with how a talent tree system is set up, particularly if the ability to move sideways or back down the tree is an option.

For what it's worth, Sam Stewart on the most recent O66 podcast confirmed that, by RAW, my post was correct, in that if you don't have the base talent, then you get no benefit from the Improved/Supreme versions of that talent.

He did also agree with my suggestion that with GM permission, you could substitute the Improved version for the basic version, but that it's a house rule and really only should be done if the GM is confident that the player isn't trying to game the system.  And even then, it be done with the understanding that the player's next XP award will be spent towards acquiring the base talent.


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