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Forest Dragon - Action


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#1 Lelansi

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 12:35 AM

How many times can you use the Forest Dragon's action? It says "Spend 3 resources to double this unit's power until the end of the turn". However, it doesn't mention how many times you can do this per turn. For example, if you're drawing 12 resources a turn, could you spend all the resources on the Forest Dragon to make it do 48 damage? (6 damage, then 12, then 24, then 48). This seems a bit ridiculous and overpowered to me. But I've not been able to find anywhere that mentions a limit…

P.S. Sorry if this has been asked on the forum before, I wasn't able to find anything in the last year's worth of posts.



#2 Mallumo

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 02:13 AM

You can trigger an action (that doesn't have a trigger condition) as often as you like, provided you can pay the costs and have legal targets. So yes, you can trigger the Forest Dragon's action as often as you can pay three resources, and its power is doubled every time. As for your example, it's not really overpowered to other situations where you got a 6-cost unit on the board that your opponent lets live and you have 12 resources available …



#3 Lelansi

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 02:39 AM

Okay, thank you.

Unfortunately, the way me and my friends play (usually minimum of four players involved), people regularly draw 12 resources (and at mid-late game level, a lot more than 12), the Forest Dragon is vastly over-powered. ;) Judgement of Loecs and Forced Marches to the rescue?! :D



#4 Junglecat

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:13 AM

I'm a little confused. I saw some earlier post clarifying how Bloodletter's ability works with multiple Bloodletter's in play. It's ability states something to the effect of "dbl all dmg as it is applied to units". If 2 Bloodletter's are in play you triple dmg, and with 3 in play you quadruple it.

Now with the action on Forest Dragon, it also doubles dmg (admittedly, with differences), so I'm wondering why in this case it's a geometric increase unlike the previous example. I know you're example is correct Mallumo, but I just want to understand why it's different so I have a better understanding of the rules when situations like this come up.



#5 Mallumo

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:43 AM

Bloodletter's is a constant effect, Forest Dragon's is an action.

 

There are two Bloodletters in play, and X damage is dealt to a unit. Now you have two constant effects that double that damage, or in other words, add X to it. So you end up with X + X + X. The damage got effectively tripled, not quadrupled.

 

When the action of Forest Dragon resolves, it looks at the unit's current power and doubles it. So it doesn't matter if the action goes on the same chain multiple times, or if there's a pause in between. After the action resolves the first time, the current power is doubled, after it resolves the second time, the THEN current power is doubled, and so on.

The constant effects (try to) happen at the same time, the actions resolve one after the other.



#6 Junglecat

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:32 PM

Skillfully explained sir. I thank you.



#7 Lelansi

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:45 PM

I have to admit, I do hope this card gets a limit at somepoint. Taking it out before it has the opportunity to do 48+ damage is all very well and good, but relies on opponents drawing the right cards to have the means to destroy the card before it becomes ridiculously powerful.



#8 Mallumo

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 12:22 AM

Forest Dragon is by now means overpowered. You are playing with multiplayer house rules ("usually minimum of four players involved", you said), of course this warps your perception of a card's strength in normal 1v1 play with tournament rules. If a card is problematic in your version of the game, just make another house rule to solve the problem, but don't expect an official change to a card that hardly even sees play among the majority of the community.



#9 Junglecat

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:23 AM

I play multi-player (3 to 4 people) and usually the first player to get a strong economy going (such as getting 8 or more resources a turn) quickly becomes the target for other players aggression/attacks. Personally, I don't envision the Forest Dragon as a huge threat but I'll try to find time to try this in one of our epic battles in the next 3 months.



#10 Lelansi

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:25 PM

Mallumo said:

Forest Dragon is by now means overpowered. You are playing with multiplayer house rules ("usually minimum of four players involved", you said), of course this warps your perception of a card's strength in normal 1v1 play with tournament rules. If a card is problematic in your version of the game, just make another house rule to solve the problem, but don't expect an official change to a card that hardly even sees play among the majority of the community.

 

I disagree, sorry. Although it's vastly overpowered in 3+ player games, I still think it's overpowered in general. I have played two player games before, so I know too what they are like, though not with tournament rules. Because what's the point if we're not in a tournament? It's the kind of thing I enjoy for fun, not for competition.

 

@Junglecat That's cool that you play big multi-player games too. :) To be honest, I guess I'll concede that the Forest Dragon isn't a huge threat, but it has the potential to be one. In all fairness, it very rarely does this mega damage, but it's just frustrating when there's no counters to it. It is a big target though in these big multi-player games.



#11 Mallumo

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:49 AM

If you are not using tournament rules, which means not following the restricted and banned lists, your perception is going to be warped even more.

 

Either way, every group of players has its own groupthink going on, and perceives different cards and strategies as strong or overpowered. For you, it's the Forest Dragon. Still, there will be no fix of any kind to it in the foreseeable future because for the majority of players it is not an issue.



#12 Lelansi

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:10 AM

If there's not enough current objection to it, then fair enough, we'll just have to put up it with it. We won't however create a "house rule" for it, because we follow the rule book exactly, with no exceptions. We obviously don't follow tournament restrictions as we don't play in tournaments. As far as I'm aware, the game doesn't just cater for tournaments, as this is mentioned in the rule book.



#13 Mallumo

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:21 PM

With no exceptions, except the number of players. ;)

 

All rules issued by FFG technically only apply to official tournaments, because that's the only place they can enforce them. They can't come to your house and make you play a certain way. The rules say it's a two player game, and if you don't care about that, that's fine. The FAQ is to be used in tournament play, and lists cards that are restricted or banned there, and if you want to follow that in your home games because it makes the game better, that's fine too. If you find a card to be problematic in your version of the game and want to make a change to improve your gaming experience, that's also fine. Playing with house rules which result in a card being problematic and then expecting a fix for this by FFG, that's where you will be disappointed. So when I say you shouldn't expect anything from FFG in that regard and just house rule the card, it's meant as friendly advice.



#14 Junglecat

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:54 AM

Mallumo, you say that FFG staff can't come to your house and make you play a certain way. Well I say that they can - at least at MY house. The idea of FFG officials knocking on my door and coming in and doing rules enforcement is hilarious.  I would welcome it and probably even provide them with malt beverages. Sorry if it's off topic but you put the idea in my head and it made me giggle. It wouldn't even be that long of a drive for them, just a bit over 2 hours to drive to Duluth from the Cities isn't it?



#15 Lelansi

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:52 PM

Mallumo said:

With no exceptions, except the number of players. ;)

 

All rules issued by FFG technically only apply to official tournaments, because that's the only place they can enforce them. They can't come to your house and make you play a certain way. The rules say it's a two player game, and if you don't care about that, that's fine. The FAQ is to be used in tournament play, and lists cards that are restricted or banned there, and if you want to follow that in your home games because it makes the game better, that's fine too. If you find a card to be problematic in your version of the game and want to make a change to improve your gaming experience, that's also fine. Playing with house rules which result in a card being problematic and then expecting a fix for this by FFG, that's where you will be disappointed. So when I say you shouldn't expect anything from FFG in that regard and just house rule the card, it's meant as friendly advice.

 

Don't worry, I wouldn't take it as anything other than friendly advice. :) In response to what you said though, about FFG coming to our house (ho ho ho) - that's a given. At the same time, Hasbro isn't going to come and enforce Monopoly rules on us when we play, but that doesn't mean we can just play the game the way we like. ;-) Well, I guess we could, but then what's the point in rules?! :D

Also…as for the number of players, is it definitely only 2? Because the box (Core Set) says 2-4 players, and we couldn't find it saying 2 player in the rule book, though that was a while ago, and it's entirely possible we missed it. Does it say it on the online FAQ? I'm not as familiar with that. I'm not being conrtradictory for the sake of it, I'm just trying to clarify this, because it's something me and my friends have discussed before.

 

 

 



#16 Mallumo

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:40 PM

First page of the rulebook, first thing after the fluff introduction: "Warhammer®: Invasion™ The Card Game is a two player duelling game …" ;)

 

That 2-4 players thing on the box has confused some people. I guess what they meant is that you get 4 decks, so you could have two duels going on. Still, quite misleading.

 

Junglecat, the problem is that when they do come, they never leave. They just crash on your couch for weeks, and when you want to talk to them on your podcast, you always run out of time before you get to them, and then they stay even longer …



#17 Junglecat

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 05:25 AM

In that case, I'll make sure that multiplayer night is held at my buddy's house. He doesn't read the forums so he won't know any better.

And Mallumo, I have the utmost faith that you'll manage to get the FF staff member in question to the microphone before you run out of time in your upcoming podcast. I can't wait!



#18 Virgo

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:42 AM

Regarding FFG staff…

Mallumo do you know when FAQ 2.0 is coming out?



#19 Mallumo

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 11:25 AM

I'm hoping soon, but I've been hoping that for a while now.



#20 Virgo

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 11:53 AM

Yeah, I know, it was supposed to be out in January and now it's almost March…

I hope it revists restriction list and fixes combo decks otherwise I would be forced to start another formal petition thread :D






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