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4th Edition City Questions, movement and the Tinkerer


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#1 Phoots

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 04:45 AM

Our group recently introduced the latest city expansion for Talisman and has come up with some questions which we would love to have clarified if possible.

First comes the movement in the city, we understand that we must follow the arrows around the city and can’t normally go backwards, that much is clear, what we are debating on is whether or not we MUST leave the city after one full circle has been completed. For example, the player starts his next move on the Speakers Corner and rolls a 6 for movement. Is he then forced to move out of the city (landing on either the Fields space closer to the Chapel or the Plains space near the Tavern) or can he continue on within the city past the city gate?

Our next question that needs clarifying is geared toward the Tinkerer’s power to automate objects. Any objects he chooses can be an automaton and follows the special followers rule found in the FAQ. That rule states any such objects are considered followers to the Tinkerer and are no longer Objects. It also states on the tinkerer card that any weapons and armor taken have to follow the limitations of weapons and armor, meaning only one of each can be elected to be used before battle. But does this mean that regular non-magical weapons and armor, such as a sword and helmet, are susceptible to the spell Transmute? The card does state Cast on any character at the start of his turn. All of the character's Weapons and Armour, except Magic Objects, are transmuted into wood and must be discarded.

 

 



#2 The_Warlock

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 08:42 PM

Phoots said:

First comes the movement in the city, we understand that we must follow the arrows around the city and can’t normally go backwards, that much is clear, what we are debating on is whether or not we MUST leave the city after one full circle has been completed. For example, the player starts his next move on the Speakers Corner and rolls a 6 for movement. Is he then forced to move out of the city (landing on either the Fields space closer to the Chapel or the Plains space near the Tavern) or can he continue on within the city past the city gate?

You don't have to leave the City if you don't want to. You only have to move following the arrows. When you reach the City Gate again, you can begin another circle in the Street Area.

Phoots said:

Our next question that needs clarifying is geared toward the Tinkerer’s power to automate objects. Any objects he chooses can be an automaton and follows the special followers rule found in the FAQ. That rule states any such objects are considered followers to the Tinkerer and are no longer Objects. It also states on the tinkerer card that any weapons and armor taken have to follow the limitations of weapons and armor, meaning only one of each can be elected to be used before battle. But does this mean that regular non-magical weapons and armor, such as a sword and helmet, are susceptible to the spell Transmute? The card does state Cast on any character at the start of his turn. All of the character's Weapons and Armour, except Magic Objects, are transmuted into wood and must be discarded.

The Tinkerer of course will create such problems in all interactions between Objects and Followers. One by one they will be found and examined. This Transmute case is quite interesting, as the wording of the Spell don't contemplate such a case. I would say that the Weapons and Armour are still transmuted into wood and discarded, as the state of automated Follower doesn't cancel their Weapon and Armour traits (they still count as Weapons and Armours). But they are not Magic Objects anymore, they're Followers, so the former Magic Weapons and Armours CAN be trasmuted now. This should be clarified by FFG, if possible.

Another case is the combination with Cursed Glade, Destroy Magic or Magic Shell. As the automated Followers are not Objects or Magic Objects anymore, I suppose the Tinkerer can use them in all these cases.



#3 Phoots

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:58 AM

The_Warlock said:

You don't have to leave the City if you don't want to. You only have to move following the arrows. When you reach the City Gate again, you can begin another circle in the Street Area.

Thank you for clarifying this. This is what I believed wen reading the rules, others in my group insisted that the drawings of the movement in the manual contradicted this notion.

The_Warlock said:

The Tinkerer of course will create such problems in all interactions between Objects and Followers. One by one they will be found and examined. This Transmute case is quite interesting, as the wording of the Spell don't contemplate such a case. I would say that the Weapons and Armour are still transmuted into wood and discarded, as the state of automated Follower doesn't cancel their Weapon and Armour traits (they still count as Weapons and Armours). But they are not Magic Objects anymore, they're Followers, so the former Magic Weapons and Armours CAN be trasmuted now. This should be clarified by FFG, if possible.

Another case is the combination with Cursed Glade, Destroy Magic or Magic Shell. As the automated Followers are not Objects or Magic Objects anymore, I suppose the Tinkerer can use them in all these cases.

Well as far as interactions with followers I know that they will never be treated as followers other than the Tinkerer and they are no longer treated as Objects to anyone, including the Tinkerer. The issue comes from the wording on the cards, like "Weapon" or "Armor" as that clasification is not changed, like you mentioned, and specifically states on the Tinkerer card they should still be clasified as that, even if they are considered followers. What you brought up that they are no longer considered Magic Objects is abnother layer of complexity altogether.

Does this mean that any enemy/creature that needs a magic object to be defeated can not be defeaed by an Item turned into an Automaton by the tinkerer? Sheesh this is getting very confusing.

How do I contact FFG about this, would love to see if there could be an official rulling on this. We hate to homebrew rules and try to keep anything official.



#4 The_Warlock

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:47 AM

Phoots said:

Well as far as interactions with followers I know that they will never be treated as followers other than the Tinkerer and they are no longer treated as Objects to anyone, including the Tinkerer. The issue comes from the wording on the cards, like "Weapon" or "Armor" as that clasification is not changed, like you mentioned, and specifically states on the Tinkerer card they should still be clasified as that, even if they are considered followers. What you brought up that they are no longer considered Magic Objects is abnother layer of complexity altogether.

Does this mean that any enemy/creature that needs a magic object to be defeated can not be defeaed by an Item turned into an Automaton by the tinkerer? Sheesh this is getting very confusing.

How do I contact FFG about this, would love to see if there could be an official rulling on this. We hate to homebrew rules and try to keep anything official.

Yeah, this is confusing. You may try to send them a message. Go on the top of this page and look for the following menus:

"More…"

"Customer Service"

"Rules Questions"

Just try. Somebody here gets (or pretends to get) answers. I personally tried a handful of times but no reply.



#5 Bolithio

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 04:13 PM

The Tinker really is a interesting PC. I am a little disappointed that they didnt give us a a few clarifications in the new rule sheet.

 

Warlock says:

I would say that the Weapons and Armour are still transmuted into wood and discarded, as the state of automated Follower doesn't cancel their Weapon and Armour traits (they still count as Weapons and Amour). But they are not Magic Objects anymore, they're Followers, so the former Magic Weapons and Armour CAN be transmuted now.

 

My interpretation is that the spell would not work. Weapons and Armour are Objects. Once they are animated they are Followers.

 

*You may turn any Objects you have into automated Followers:

  • You may use the abilities and effects of automated Followers as normal (Weapon and Armour limits still apply).
  • Automated Followers are no longer considered Objects and do not count towards your carrying capacity.
  • After you encounter a space and have drawn the required number of cards, you may discard an automated Follower to discard any number of cards on the space and draw new cards to replace them, which you must encounter.

The ability says Weapon and Armour limits apply, not that they are still "treated as weapons or armour". Once he automates a sword, its no longer a sowrd. Its just that he cant use two automated weapons at a time.

What do you think?

--

Phoots says:

Does this mean that any enemy/creature that needs a magic object to be defeated can not be defeaed by an Item turned into an Automaton by the tinkerer?

Yes. And I think there will be many interesting adventure card interactions that will have varying results. I think if we stick to Objects and Followers as the main Types we are in the clear.

--

My question for you guys: Consider a tinker with automated amour vrs the battle axe. Can the timnker use the amour against a hit from the battle axe (which normally prevents a defender from using armour?

and what about a automated raft… is it possible!? Can I take it with me?!!

 



#6 The_Warlock

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 07:35 AM

Bolithio said:

The Tinker really is a interesting PC. I am a little disappointed that they didnt give us a a few clarifications in the new rule sheet.

 

Warlock says:

I would say that the Weapons and Armour are still transmuted into wood and discarded, as the state of automated Follower doesn't cancel their Weapon and Armour traits (they still count as Weapons and Amour). But they are not Magic Objects anymore, they're Followers, so the former Magic Weapons and Armour CAN be transmuted now.

 

My interpretation is that the spell would not work. Weapons and Armour are Objects. Once they are animated they are Followers.

 

*You may turn any Objects you have into automated Followers:

  • You may use the abilities and effects of automated Followers as normal (Weapon and Armour limits still apply).
  • Automated Followers are no longer considered Objects and do not count towards your carrying capacity.
  • After you encounter a space and have drawn the required number of cards, you may discard an automated Follower to discard any number of cards on the space and draw new cards to replace them, which you must encounter.

The ability says Weapon and Armour limits apply, not that they are still "treated as weapons or armour". Once he automates a sword, its no longer a sowrd. Its just that he cant use two automated weapons at a time.

What do you think?

Maybe you are right, maybe you're not: I have no sure answer to this. I only think it's better to still consider the Weapon and Armour keywords as active, no matter if they were usually given to Objects only. One good reason comes shortly below.

Bolithio said:

My question for you guys: Consider a tinker with automated amour vrs the battle axe. Can the timnker use the amour against a hit from the battle axe (which normally prevents a defender from using armour?

This case made me think it's better to consider an automated Follower which has an Armour trait as an Armour, even though it's not an Object anymore.

Bolithio said:

and what about a automated raft… is it possible!? Can I take it with me?!!

Making the Raft an automated Follower doesn't cancel the obligation to discard it if not used… The Raft is not discarded because it is an Object, it's discarded because it's written on the card.






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