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Speaking of making the Rebels cool again…


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#1 ErikB

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:05 PM

I think this guy is Doing It Right!

This chap isn't too bad either.

(Credit to Idreamoftoshiba at the One Sixth Warrior forum)


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#2 borithan

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:34 AM

The rebels were always cool… well, the bright orange pilot suits aside, oh, and the Tantive guards' cooky helmets, but aside from that they were always cool. They also had the much cooler fighters.

 

Don't like the "meathead" look they both have. They should have facial hair, and look a bit scrawnier. 1) Serving soldiers generally are not as bulky as they are often protrayed in films and 2) the rebels are volunteer citizens who come from all walks of life, so a more individualistic, less soldierish look makes more sense to me. Very well done models though.



#3 ErikB

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 08:40 AM

borithan said:

The rebels were always cool…

Don't like the "meathead" look they both have. They should have facial hair, and look a bit scrawnier. 1) Serving soldiers generally are not as bulky as they are often protrayed in films and 2) the rebels are volunteer citizens who come from all walks of life, so a more individualistic, less soldierish look makes more sense to me.

 

As for the meathead look, there is no getting around that I think Gears of War aesthetic is the coolest thing in the world, which apparently isn't universal.

Beyond that, though, we must bear in mind that Rebels tend to be big, corn fed American farm boys, and as such are much healthier than their more urban, European opponents.

In the Second World War, for instance, American soldiers tended to be noticably taller than their British colleagues, on account of having a much better diet (they also wore better quality uniforms and got paid more, and hence attracted the girls better, which caused no end of problems).

And Americans in the Pacific were certainly much bigger and stronger than Japanese soldiers who had been brought up on a rice based diet.

(Plus Star Wars is a movie, and beyond that a movie that draws heavily on other movies - westerns, war movies, samurai movies, etc., so I think drawing on representations of soldiers from movies is entirely acceptable and in genre).

In general, I think it is important to ensure people get that being a Rebel is a really cool job. And that these guys,

are Rebels.

borithan said:

Very well done models though.
 

Yes. Those are particularly well done, but while I am not in to it myself, I do quite like looking at the dolly community for inspiration.


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#4 ErikB

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 06:38 AM

On the subject of Orange Rebel flight suits, this is the pressure suit worn by pilots of the SR-71 Blackbird.

And then you get the Space Shuttle flight suit:-


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#5 borithan

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:49 PM

And I think that just proves my point… they just look dorky. Now, there may be very good practical reasons for a bright orange flight suit, but it still doesn't make it flattering.

ErikB said:

As for the meathead look, there is no getting around that I think Gears of War aesthetic is the coolest thing in the world, which apparently isn't universal.

Beyond that, though, we must bear in mind that Rebels tend to be big, corn fed American farm boys, and as such are much healthier than their more urban, European opponents.

In the Second World War, for instance, American soldiers tended to be noticably taller than their British colleagues, on account of having a much better diet (they also wore better quality uniforms and got paid more, and hence attracted the girls better, which caused no end of problems).

And Americans in the Pacific were certainly much bigger and stronger than Japanese soldiers who had been brought up on a rice based diet.

(Plus Star Wars is a movie, and beyond that a movie that draws heavily on other movies - westerns, war movies, samurai movies, etc., so I think drawing on representations of soldiers from movies is entirely acceptable and in genre).

In general, I think it is important to ensure people get that being a Rebel is a really cool job. And that these guys, are Rebels.

Gears of War aesthetic… yeah, they killed the only sensible character off with a sniper rifle… even though he was the only one with a helmet (durr….). Meatheads the lot of them.

If you look at the rebel troopers we see they aren't really "big corn-fed American farm boys". Instead they seem to be scrawny guys in the 30+ age range, at least going by the rebel commandos in the Return of the Jedi. That and sporting rather dated 1980s mustaches, excepting the older guy with full beard.

I personally think that picture of American soldiers you had just shows people far to comfortable with being soldiers for a Rebel Trooper. A Rebel trooper is going to be someone being a soldier because he feels it is a necessity, rather than because it is his calling or anything.



#6 ErikB

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 01:29 AM

borithan said:

A Rebel trooper is going to be someone being a soldier because he feels it is a necessity, rather than because it is his calling or anything.

Exactly.

And I dunno. I think mach 3.3 spyplane* pilots and astronauts are cool.

:-)

*The blackbird was in 1977 and remains the worlds fastest air breathing aircraft


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#7 Lunatic Pathos

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:42 PM

I agree, I like the orange jumpsuit.

This may be partly because I like things that break the common mold of what people think looks cool, especially when its set in the future or a vastly different locale. What is cool changes. What looks cool to people nowadays would probably look really really stupid to people decades ago. This is one of the things I liked about Looper. The 20's gangster look isn't in right now, nor would anyone nowadays think "blunderbuss" was a cool sounding word for a shotgun. But its set in the future, so the things we think are cool they think of as outdated and the things they think are cool sound dorky to us.

Nerf Herder isn't a cool sounding insult, either.



#8 TechnoGolem

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:26 PM

I never viewed the rebel soldiers as "big, corn fed American farm boys." I always felt that they would be the opposite of that. These are people that have become so disgusted with the Empire that they have decided to pick up arms and fight back. What we are seeing is basically a peasant revolt which tends to happen in times of famine or other hardships. It is also why you end up with guys like Porkins. Obviously the hardships that drove him to join were not a lack of food but the rebels were willing to take any average Joe that could help in a fight. This brings up something that has always bothered me about the rebels. They always tried to portray them as underdogs yet it seemed like they had nearly unlimited resources with all of their fleets and starships.



#9 Andrew Tatro

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:46 AM

TechnoGolem said:

This brings up something that has always bothered me about the rebels. They always tried to portray them as underdogs yet it seemed like they had nearly unlimited resources with all of their fleets and starships.

This is what happens when your Imperial policy at best marginalizes and at worst subjugates hundreds of non-Human worlds with perfectly functioning shipyards.



#10 ErikB

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 04:21 AM

>>>>>I never viewed the rebel soldiers as "big, corn fed American farm boys."<<<<<

Despite all the jokes about Luke being a farm boy?

>>>>>What we are seeing is basically a peasant revolt<<<<<

Nah. It is the Second World War, and the Battle of Britain, in which The Few fighter pilots of the RAF in their Spitfires stood off the gigantic Nazi air armadas, or the Cold War, in which the hero soldiers of NATO in their M1 tanks battled the unending hordes of communists in their T-72s.

Or it is the war of 1812, where, in their Heavy Frigates like the USS Constitution the US Navy built the only seagoing weapon system in the entire age of sail that could take on a Royal Navy ship on equal terms and win.


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#11 Deathseed

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 05:14 AM

You are part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor! Take him away!


You think you've got problems. What are you supposed to do if you are a manically depressed robot? No, don't even bother answering. I'm 50,000 times more intelligent than you, and even I don't know the answer.


#12 Andrew Tatro

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 05:58 AM

ErikB said:

>>>>>I never viewed the rebel soldiers as "big, corn fed American farm boys."<<<<<

Despite all the jokes about Luke being a farm boy?

He's neither big, corn-fed, nor American. For that matter I'm not sure what he's fed, because they're farming water.

As for the other Rebels, look at 'em. You don't exactly see the big, barrel chested Kansas farmboy types. The primary common feature among the Rebels instead seems to be unfortunate-looking facial hair.



#13 ErikB

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:20 AM

Andrew Tatro said:

ErikB said:

 

>>>>>I never viewed the rebel soldiers as "big, corn fed American farm boys."<<<<<

Despite all the jokes about Luke being a farm boy?

 

He's neither big, corn-fed, nor American. For that matter I'm not sure what he's fed, because they're farming water.

As for the other Rebels, look at 'em. You don't exactly see the big, barrel chested Kansas farmboy types. The primary common feature among the Rebels instead seems to be unfortunate-looking facial hair.

Well, like I say US soldiers in the second world war averaged about 2 inches taller than their european colleagues, and much taller than Japanese soldiers.

(Note, however, that should a particular bad guy be bigger than our hero, he is clearly a big dumb brute)

And all the good guys have American accents and dress like Cowboys, and the bad guys have British accents and dress like Nazis. I don't think the symbolism is very subtle here.

And you need to remember what Stormtroopers look like under the helmets…

:0)


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#14 Andrew Tatro

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 09:43 AM

I started to type a response, but then I realized there really isn't anything that's going to convince you, so why bother?

I will say, for the record, that I think that the very thread title is based on a point that doesn't stand up very well. The Rebels were cool even when they were just a bunch of guys who had bad mustaches and junky old starfighters. They were cool not because they were big muscley He-Men type dudes, but because they knew that they were up against the absolute worst evil in the entire galaxy - we're talking "blow up an entire planet to prove a point" scale evil - and they didn't flinch. And then they got a whole bunch of others to join them when they proved that you can in fact make a difference in the face of overwhelming odds. That's pretty cool.



#15 ErikB

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:45 AM

I would remind you that at the time of the battle of Yavin, Incom's T-65B Starfighter, known as the X-Wing in Alliance service, was the sharpest thing in space.

After all, when noted Imperial pilot Maarek Stele was asked by Moff Tarkin what he needed to help him crush the rebellion, did he not answer 'Give me a squadron of X-Wings'?

:0)

There is a bit in Shadows of the Empire that deals with Rebel/Imperial force ratios:-

>>>>>>>Wedge continued the briefing. The Imperial Enclave was home base to two Star Destroyers-turned out the carrier was just a rumor-but that was plenty. Luke knew that a standard Destroyer carried a wing of TIE fighters, each wing made up of six squads, which meant seventy-two TIEs per Destroyer. A hundred and forty-four of them against the twelve in Rogue Squadron.

Well. Thirteen, counting Luke's ship. That made the odds a hair less than twelve to one. Not so bad compared to some battles they'd been in.

He grinned. It was a measure of how lopsided the war between the Empire and the Alliance was when twelve-to-one odds didn't seem so bad.
 
As Luke listened, he started thinking about a plan. Simpler the better, he figured. Wedge finished his briefing. "That's about it. What do you think, Luke?"
 
"Piece of cake," Luke said. "I know just how to do it." Leia and Lando both looked at him as if he'd turned into a big spider. He grinned again.
 
--
 
Leia laughed. "That's your plan?" Luke looked indignant. "What's wrong with it?" His breath made fog-vapor in the cold room.
 
"You and Rogue Squadron will attack the Imperial Enclave, keep a hundred and some-odd TIE fighters and two Star Destroyers busy while Dash leads the Mil-lennium Falcon to where Boba Fett's ship is docked? We'll just land, rescue Han, and fly away? Why, nothing is wrong with that plan. What could I possibly be thinking was wrong? It's perfect." She shook her head.
 
"Okay, so it's simple-" Luke began.
 
"Simpleminded," Leia said.
 
He set his jaw. Uh-oh. She'd insulted his manhood.
 
She knew that look. "If you have a better idea…?" Luke said, his voice tight.
 
Leia sighed. That was the problem. She didn't have a better idea. Luke's plan was straightforward, and while it might be foolhardy enough to get them all cooked by Imperial turbolasers, it might also be just crazy enough to work. If she were the local commander, she'd never expect anybody to do anything so stupid. "Well…" she began.
 
"That's what I thought," Luke said. There was a small note of triumph in his voice when he said it, too.<<<<<<<
 
Now, Shadows of the Empire isn't exactly the best book in the world, but that bit does kinda give an example of how people thought Rebels vs. Imperials should work, back in the day.

 


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#16 Lunatic Pathos

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 03:19 PM

Agree on the TIE fighter vs. X-Wing example. TIE Fighters are built for ease of manufacturing in large numbers. That's because they have to garrison the whole galaxy. The rebels have good ships (fighters at least) because they've got all the disenfranchised aliens' shipyards working for them.

I would also argue that Rogue Squadron can handle 12-to-1 odds, but that doesn't mean typical rebel pilots can. X-Wings are shielded and more heavily armed, but TIE fighters are quick enough that they can still match an X-Wing in a dogfight, since it doesn't matter how strong your shields and guns are if the guy's behind you and you can't outmaneuver him.

Luke has the force on his side, and the rest of Rogue Squadron are the best of the best.

But that doesn't necessarily carry over to ground actions. You can have space superiority but inferior infantry/armor. You can have better fighters and worse capital ships. In some of those battles, the rebels have tons of dingy little frigates versus 2 or 3 star destroyers. So its balanced one way in some cases and the other in other areas.



#17 Sturn

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 07:10 AM

ErikB said:

Well, like I say US soldiers in the second world war averaged about 2 inches taller than their european colleagues, and much taller than Japanese soldiers.

I have no idea why US soldiers being taller then Japenese soldiers means anything when trying to defend how Luke and Rebels are "big American corn fed boys" (and it's already been pointed out, they weren't).

ErikB said:

And you need to remember what Stormtroopers look like under the helmets…

Again, I'm not sure why this matters at all to the discussion at hand. During casting it wouldn't matter at all what they looked like, only if they were a certain height and fit inside the suit.

You are going off on tangents that don't support the argument you are making. You are just turning to new arguments that no one was arguing with you about in the first place.



#18 ErikB

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 09:20 AM

Sturn said:

I have no idea why US soldiers being taller then Japenese soldiers means anything when trying to defend how Luke and Rebels are "big American corn fed boys" (and it's already been pointed out, they weren't).

Imperial Japanese Army and Emperor Hirohito?

Another way you can imply to Rebel characters that they have picked the right side is if brainwashed Stormtroopers often commit suicide with grenades rather than be capture by the Rebels…


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#19 Sturn

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 10:19 AM

ErikB said:

 

Sturn said:

I have no idea why US soldiers being taller then Japenese soldiers means anything when trying to defend how Luke and Rebels are "big American corn fed boys" (and it's already been pointed out, they weren't).

 

Imperial Japanese Army and Emperor Hirohito?

Another way you can imply to Rebel characters that they have picked the right side is if brainwashed Stormtroopers often commit suicide with grenades rather than be capture by the Rebels…

 

This is exactly my point. You used the US/Japanese size difference when defending your comparison of Rebels to "big American corn fed boys". That was shown to be untrue. You are now suggesting, by changing your argument, that you were just comparing the Imperial Japanese to the Imperial Army of Star Wars. No one is going to argue there are not similarities. That wasn't the argument, you just shifted it. You were NOT simply saying the Imperial Japanese and Imperail SW Army were similar, you were saying US soldiers are taller then the Imperial Japanese so this makes the US soldiers (aka SW Rebels), "big American corn fed boys".  Slipping back to Imperial Japaense = similar to Imperial SW (which is true) does not make your initial argument true.



#20 ErikB

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:22 PM

Well, the argument is how you make Rebels better soldiers than Imperials.

Like American soldiers in the second world war, their better diets makes them larger and stronger than their opponents. They are better trained and equipped because their leaders actually give a **** about them rather than treating them as disposable equipment. And they have far more personal initiative because it has not been brainwashed out of them in the reeducation camps.


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