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smoking nightlords


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#1 Cryhavok

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:25 AM

Nightlord+noxious discharge weapon downgrade seems really sweet to me. Any flaws you all can point oit to me?

#2 Asoral

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:35 AM

Well, if you like not hitting anything or spending a half action each turn to get out of the smoke cloud and thus not getting the bonus you are looking into getting to do this, then yes. Its as hard for you to see enemies outside your cloud of smoke as it is for them to see you (altho I would say that one diameter cloud of smoke isnt enough to fully conceal a Chaos Space Marine…) so you also get the minus to hitting targets.



#3 Cryhavok

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:00 PM

Actually being a nightlord, everone elses penalty would be 20 worse than yours, for the cost of shooting at them. And how would a one meter radius not cover a marine? A marine fits inside a one meter square, the smoke completely covers a one meter square… it adds up to me, but hey your game your house rules.

#4 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:25 PM

They're called downgrades for a reason. They're not supposed to benefit you.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#5 Kiton

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:40 PM

1m around the user, given it should originate from the weapon, should probably be considered enough to block your vision. Chances are its 'hot smoke', otherwise preysense or IR would probably get to ignore it.

Larger weapons though might help; if you've a monosight on the barrel of your autocannon or lascannon, it could be sticking out enough if you're using the sight to avoid a penalty.

Best option though? Use an Optical Dendrite. That explicitly states it can extend to three meters. Discharge also works well for a weapon with recharge, like a Plasma Cannon on maximal: You'd have to be doing something else next round anyways.

Overall, the Noxious Discharge downgrade can be quite helpful, but you have to 'pay' for the usefulness, else its 'neutral' with a two-way penalty.



#6 Cryhavok

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:16 PM

Boss Gitsmasha said:

They're called downgrades for a reason. They're not supposed to benefit you.

Part of the art of war, and incidentally alot of fun in games, is finding ways to overcome your weaknesses. From my perspective, not looking for a way to use a weakness to your advantage is like admitting defeat.

Also, I might be misinterpreting what you are saying, but if you are making house rules to add extra penalties to your players because you think they should have more regardless of RaW, then Im glad my GMs don't.


#7 BrotharTearer

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:33 PM

Precision Telekinesis + Noxius Downgrade = you don't even notice it.



#8 Kiton

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:44 PM

BrotharTearer said:

Precision Telekinesis + Noxius Downgrade = you don't even notice it.

GAH! I can't believe that never came to mind!



#9 Cifer

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 01:00 AM

I doubt that would work. Telekinetically aiming a weapon you can't even see, let alone use its sights? Sounds less than easy.

 

On the other hand side, the Noxious Discharge might very well work if you use it with a melee- or mobility-focused Nightlord - smoke your own position with your bolt pistol at the end of your turn. On your next turn, exit your own cloud via jump-pack and either raptor-charge your nearest enemy or hip-shoot another smoke cloud.
Nice find.



#10 ShadowRay

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:43 AM

Also good thing for a sniper, since you can use the next ound for aiming, or running away if  discovered.



#11 Cryhavok

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:52 AM

ShadowRay said:

Also good thing for a sniper, since you can use the next ound for aiming, or running away if� discovered.

I think the smoke cloud would gaurantee discovery. It would be litterally sending up a smoke signal saying "Im right here." Unless it is in a generally smokey area already.

#12 Asoral

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:01 AM

Cifer said:

I doubt that would work. Telekinetically aiming a weapon you can't even see, let alone use its sights? Sounds less than easy.

 

On the other hand side, the Noxious Discharge might very well work if you use it with a melee- or mobility-focused Nightlord - smoke your own position with your bolt pistol at the end of your turn. On your next turn, exit your own cloud via jump-pack and either raptor-charge your nearest enemy or hip-shoot another smoke cloud.
Nice find.

Just get Blind fighting and you are up to a good start.



#13 BrotharTearer

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:25 AM

Cifer said:

I doubt that would work. Telekinetically aiming a weapon you can't even see, let alone use its sights? Sounds less than easy.

Technically you only "aim" when using the Aim action. The power says you can do anything that you can do with your own hands. Doesn't matter if the weapon happens to be 5m from you. You want the weapon to target something and it does, it's the warp and psychic powers. You can summon daemons, control minds and conjure blasts of hellfire. Why not shoot a weapon somewhat accurately while it's a few meters to your side?



#14 ShadowRay

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 01:15 AM

BrotharTearer said:

Cifer said:

 

I doubt that would work. Telekinetically aiming a weapon you can't even see, let alone use its sights? Sounds less than easy.

 

 

Technically you only "aim" when using the Aim action. The power says you can do anything that you can do with your own hands. Doesn't matter if the weapon happens to be 5m from you. You want the weapon to target something and it does, it's the warp and psychic powers. You can summon daemons, control minds and conjure blasts of hellfire. Why not shoot a weapon somewhat accurately while it's a few meters to your side?



Because you also use your eyes, which cannot see anything in smoke, to aim. But some nifty weapon MIU with wireless targeting could fix that.



#15 Cifer

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 02:05 AM

@BrotharTearer

I was using the word "aim" not so much in the rules context, but in the "know where you are shooting" sense. Yes, you can use the power to do anything you can do with your hands. However, you don't only need your hands to shoot something - the term 'hand-eye coordination' already implies what other body part is quite useful. What you're trying to do there is not so much shooting, it's spotting for a very short-ranged piece of artillery, with no common reference frame but what you can construct in your mind.

To achieve a similar effect, try the following: Put your gun at some place. Step away from it. Take a look at your target and your gun. Cover your eyes with a blindfold. Have someone lead you back to your gun. Aim and shoot. What do you think are your chances of success? It's certainly easy if your opponent is within point-blank distance, but anything beyond that is essentially blind fire.

 

You can summon daemons, control minds and conjure blasts of hellfire. Why not shoot a weapon somewhat accurately while it's a few meters to your side?

Because daemon summoning happens via a summoning ritual, mind control is done via telepathy and hellfire blasting uses pyrokinesis, but Precision Telekinesis is a telekinesis power - not a divination one. You do not get back any sensory input from the weapon's position and the power has no "brain" of its own.

 

@ShadowRay

Certainly, if you have some kind of sensory connection to your weapon, you can use it essentially as a drone. Might still take some practice (like shaving with a mirror - the connection between your vision and your actions is different from the usual), but it sounds doable.



#16 BrotharTearer

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 06:39 PM

@Cifer

Sure eye-hand coordination plays a part in standard "aiming". But this is the warp we're talking about. Would it be so strange if your telekinesis-controlled weapon would be able to point at whatever you're looking at whilst being a few meters to your side?

It's really up to one's GM on how it to go with it. If you need line of sight to a target you'd still not be able to stand behind a wall and shoot your precision telekinesed weapon around the corner, so I don't see the issue. The boon of using a weapon with precision telekinesis, apart from using WP for the test, is that you'd be able to position the weapon in such a way to avoid potential cover that a target is hinding behind or the noxious downgrade smoke obscuring a target.



#17 Cifer

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:11 PM

Sure eye-hand coordination plays a part in standard "aiming". But this is the warp we're talking about. Would it be so strange if your telekinesis-controlled weapon would be able to point at whatever you're looking at whilst being a few meters to your side?

Well… yes. Because as mentioned the power is part of the telekinesis portfolio. There's no divination involved, no extrasensory perception that might lead you to know where the weapon points or let the weapon know where you want it to point. Otherwise, why not go for a cogitator that is able to just implement, compile and run any program you'd like although the psyker doesn't even have tech-use? A Valkyrie that can be commanded to fly anywhere you'd like (using the power on the controls, obviously)? Because that is the logical outcome of allowing the power to do something you couldn't manually direct it to do: Who needs skills when you've got Precision Omniscience Telekinesis?
And let's be honest there: Psykers are the group that least needs a boost in power.



#18 Cryhavok

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 03:04 AM

For shooting without sighting along the barrel, see the hip shooting talent. If they had hip shooting, or some form of sensory connection to the weapon, either one, I would allow it. If they didn't I would treat it like blind fighting personally, still possible, but far more unlikely. As for the possibility of shooting something while not having a down the barrel perspective, It is something that can be trained for and learned, and anyone who has used a remote control gun should know that.

#19 Cifer

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:13 AM

@Cryhavok

I think there's still some difference between shooting from the hip (which generally shares at least one axis with your eyes) and shooting from someplace else entirely. As for the remote control gun, presumably they'd have some kind of camera equipment, wouldn't they?



#20 Cryhavok

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:09 PM

Cifer said:

@Cryhavok

I think there's still some difference between shooting from the hip (which generally shares at least one axis with your eyes) and shooting from someplace else entirely. As for the remote control gun, presumably they'd have some kind of camera equipment, wouldn't they?

Actually hip shooting is not quite on a vertical axis with your eyes, it is off to the side, just not very far. Hip shooting would be easier to get used to though. No you dont need a camera, although having one allows you to skip actually learning to fire a remote gun without one, the camera would be alot easier. All you really need is a consistant position in relation to the gun and your eyes. The rest is pretty much triangulation. Although eyeballing it is difficult to learn to do, I can fire a remote rifle fairly accurately, but as I said, it was difficult to get where Im at with it, and if you change the "positional relationship between you and the gun youll have to adjust your aim.




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