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Alchemist infinite gold in city


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#1 LordZoma

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:27 PM

Go to magic shop in city.

Buy scroll for one gold.

Alchemist magic object for three gold.

Repeat until you have all the gold and two rings and two spell books.

Completely legal by the rules.

Limit of thirty gold normally, but with city revealed ending its infinite gold.

Either way, just send the alchemist to magic shop and its heal all life, fate, spells, full gold, gain spell at start of turn, plus two craft and strength, and attack in psychic combat. Totally dominant!

Our group's nerf to the Alchemist - ITEMS THAT ARE DISCARDED BY ALCHEMIST ABILITY DO NOT RETURN TO THE PURCHASE DECK UNTIL THE END OF THE TURN.

This means the Alchemist can rush for the magic emporium, with his starting 5 gold purchase two scrolls, alchemise them to go from 5 --> 3 --> 9, then purchase two 2 gold items, to go from 9 --> 5 --> 11, then purchase a spell book. And the alchemist has a spell book and his starting 5 gold back.



#2 Kallabecca

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:33 PM

How is the Alchemist getting so many buy actions on a turn?



#3 Uvatha

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 08:03 PM

Kallabecca said:

How is the Alchemist getting so many buy actions on a turn?

Trouble is there is no timing rules on City Shops you can buy use special abilities buy use special abilities etc etc well i say "no rules" but as far as i remember there isnt. Even if there is a rule you can just have one buy turn a turn thats still 2 scrolls just need 2 gold go to 6 gold, 4 gold you can goto 9 gold, 6 gold you can goto 12gold thats still a hell lot of gold in one shop. At least you cant just go out then back in? 



#4 BanthaFodder

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 10:52 PM

I would argue that you can only encouter the space/shop once. That means only one purchasing transaction.

You must then leave the shop on the next turn. I guess if you rolled a "1" you would only go out onto the street and could therefore

drop back into the shop on the next turn, you are never allowed to double-back on yourself in any single movement .

 

It adds a strategy for all other players that if the see the Alchemist heading towards the City you might want to get over the PDQ.

 

A point that has not been raised as far as I can see it that you are more vulnerable to attack in a shop -  you do not have to roll the exact number to enter the one you want. Therefore a stronger character can much more easily track you down and attack.

If you hang around too long you may find someone coming to getcha! 

Characters that rely of PvP might want to hang near the City as they will find it much easier to land on their targets.

 

 



#5 Croonos

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:53 PM

With the City exp characters like Leprechaun and Alchemist can quickly buy all the powerful items. Having 2 Spellbooks can give 2 spells every turn or riding on a 3 or 4  Warehorses make easy to kill LoD in Dungeon. It will be very hard to stop those 2 especially Alchemist who can buy Scroll or potion in Apothecary and alchemise it for 3 gold. He can make 3 or 4 rounds in City and easily win the game or heal Life endlessly even if someone else reached CoC first. I think trinkets should not be able to alchemise. There are many other strong characters like Ogre Cheftain or Fire Wizard but they don't auto-win. I think this is the first time when Alchemist have a overpowered combo in hand and he can lose only by fickle finger of fate… (like Reaper)



#6 BanthaFodder

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:45 AM

 

Croonos said:
 
With the City exp characters like Leprechaun and Alchemist can quickly buy all the powerful items. Having 2 Spellbooks can give 2 spells every turn or riding on a 3 or 4  Warehorses make easy to kill LoD in Dungeon. It will be very hard to stop those 2 especially Alchemist who can buy Scroll or potion in Apothecary and alchemise it for 3 gold. He can make 3 or 4 rounds in City and easily win the game or heal Life endlessly even if someone else reached CoC first. I think trinkets should not be able to alchemise. There are many other strong characters like Ogre Cheftain or Fire Wizard but they don't auto-win. I think this is the first time when Alchemist have a overpowered combo in hand and he can lose only by fickle finger of fate… (like Reaper)
 
 
Have you tried this strategy yet? I only received mine yesterday so I have not hada a chance yet.
 
You have to factor in how long it wold take you to do a circuit.
 
There are 20 spaces you have to navigate to get back to the same shop.
 
If you do not stop in any other shop, at best that is 4 turns, on average (disregarding fate) about 6-7 turns.
Your profit is only 2G, big investment in time for small reward.
Of course, if you get a Riding Horse (is that allowed in the City?) That would cut the time down 
 
Alternatively, as I said, if you roll a 1 on your first movement then it seems possible you could re-enter the shop on the next turn
as you will be in the street space outside the shop.
 
Having said that,  this is a general rule, the Magic Emporium does have a particular exploit but for a cost
 
 
 
The Magic Emporium is adjacent to the Town Square, along with the Soothsayer. Now this does introduce another possibility. 
 
 
 
from the Magic Emporium shop , roll for movement:
 
1: Market Square - back in the shop next turn (repeat)
 
2-6: spend a fate and re-roll
 
     1: Market Square - back in the shop next turn (repeat)
 
     2-6: Soothsayer - spend 1 gold and replenish that fate 
 
 
 
     from the Soothsayer on your next turn, roll for movement:
 
     1: Market Square - Magic Emporium next turn (repeat)
 
      2-6: Magic Emporium (repeat)
 
 
 
That means you can get back to the Magic Emporium in 2-3 turns although may cost you 1G or 1F so profit margin reduced
 
Rough calculation, which may be wrong - only a couple of hours sleep last night…
 
17% no cost (1 on 1st roll)
14% 1 Fate (1 on 1st re-roll) 
69% 1 Gold
 
As the Alchemist can turn Gold into Fate, you could argue that the odds are:
17% no cost
83% 1 Gold
 
Number of turns:
 
89%  2 turns
11%  3 turns (2-6,2-6 re-roll, 1 next turn)
 
Which means that if you wanted to spam the Magic Emporium with the Alchemist it would most likely take 2 turns and 5/6 times you only make 1G profit
 
Personally I don't see this as a strategy that would work terribly well.
 
Of course if you have the Poltegeist, that is a different matter, it certainly takes 2 turns and you get the full 2G profit each time.
Quite a combination though as you have to approach the City from the West as to not pass over the bridge.
 
I would be very interested to see a report on how Alchemist in the City actually fares.
 


#7 Bolithio

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:32 PM

Yeh run around the city the whole game Alchimist! Then suddenly someone else is taking the crown and all you have is a bunch of gold! ha ha sucker!



#8 Steve-O

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:02 PM

BanthaFodder said:

There are 20 spaces you have to navigate to get back to the same shop.

 
If you do not stop in any other shop, at best that is 4 turns, on average (disregarding fate) about 6-7 turns.

 

You can't double back on yourself in a single move, but you can still choose which direction to walk in on each new turn, right?  As long as you follow the arrows, of course.

Go to the magic shop, do your Alchemist thing.  First turn after, go to the Soothsayer (or the street if you only roll a 1.)  Second turn, back to the magic shop.

Unless you roll abysmally and keep getting 1's for movement, it's an every-other-turn cycle.  And since you're making so much money at the magic shop, keeping your Fate topped up through the Soothsayer shouldn't be too hard, while you're at it.



#9 Croonos

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:16 PM

BanthaFodder said:

Have you tried this strategy yet? I only received mine yesterday so I have not hada a chance yet.
 


Of course I tried. Alchemist starts in City with 5G.
1st City round - buy 3 potions in Apothecary and alchemise for 9G, so totally 11G, next Magic Emporium buy 3x Scrolls and 3x Psychic Crystal (cos of 9G) alchemise them for 18G, totally 20G (so he can get +15G per one round), then he can buy powerful items in Armoury and Stabels and go for the second City round. He can make 3 or 4 City rounds end easily win for example by defeating LoD in Dungeon on a few Warehorses. I think no one can reach CoC quicker. This is first major playtesting bug and it should be clarify soon because mistakes like that dicourage playing…
 


#10 Croonos

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:17 PM

Of course I tried. Alchemist starts in City with 5G.
1st City round - buy 3 potions in Apothecary and alchemise for 9G, so totally 11G, next Magic Emporium buy 3x Scrolls and 3x Psychic Crystal (cos of 9G) alchemise them for 18G, totally 20G (so he can get +15G per one round), then he can buy powerful items in Armoury and Stabels and go for the second City round. He can make 3 or 4 City rounds end easily win for example by defeating LoD in Dungeon on a few Warehorses. I think no one can reach CoC quicker. This is first major playtesting bug and it should be clarify soon because mistakes like that dicourage playing…



#11 BanthaFodder

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:06 PM

Croonos said:

Of course I tried. Alchemist starts in City with 5G.
1st City round - buy 3 potions in Apothecary and alchemise for 9G, so totally 11G, next Magic Emporium buy 3x Scrolls and 3x Psychic Crystal (cos of 9G) alchemise them for 18G, totally 20G (so he can get +15G per one round), then he can buy powerful items in Armoury and Stabels and go for the second City round. He can make 3 or 4 City rounds end easily win for example by defeating LoD in Dungeon on a few Warehorses. I think no one can reach CoC quicker. This is first major playtesting bug and it should be clarify soon because mistakes like that dicourage playing…

 

Aha. As I had said, not had an opportunity to play or even examine yet. The Apothecary makes the difference. 

That does sound like it needs fixing but difficult, Alchemist was introduced at the same time as Trinkets and they are specifically ruled to be the same as Objects in all regards apart from carrying limits.

The difference before was you could not reliably acquire Magic Objects, this has now changed and then some.

 

That said, special abilities always override so legitimate I think to overrule there.

I think my preferred houserule would be to amend the Alchemist's abilities slightly 

 

  • During your turn you may alchemise any Objects you have into Gold. Discard the chosen Objects and gain 1 gold for each Object and 3 Gold for each Magic Object. Trinkets can only be alchemised into a maximum of 1 Gold each

I think the Alchemist is strong enough as he is as so not nerfing him at all by this restriction. 


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#12 Thernand

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:41 AM

Hi,

This is from FFG:

Two Spellbooks would indeed give you two spell per turn if your Craft allows.

If you have two Warhorses you can indeed use both of them in Battle to grant your Craft Value twice. Remember that the term "Craft Value" means the Craft listed on your Character Card, so only the starting amount; not any added through Trophy trade-ins or Objects.
 



#13 0beron

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:07 PM

I guess we're not really that competive, my wife/co-player and me. I wouldn't have thought of having 2 spell books or warhorses.  She was angry when I cast a spell on her the other day. We're both evil characters, hun… 



#14 RiCHiE

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 10:56 PM

Thernand said:

Hi,

This is from FFG:

Two Spellbooks would indeed give you two spell per turn if your Craft allows.

If you have two Warhorses you can indeed use both of them in Battle to grant your Craft Value twice. Remember that the term "Craft Value" means the Craft listed on your Character Card, so only the starting amount; not any added through Trophy trade-ins or Objects.
 

We have put a House Rule in place - you cannot stack the effects from the same object/ spell unless your ability states otherwise.  It just seems silly and stops the exploits of the Alchemist.  We allow the Magic Ring (trinket) and the Magic Ring from the original board to stack.



#15 Tiggurix

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 11:01 AM

Why is that silly? If you have two different spellbooks, they could have entirely different contents, inspiring you with arcane insight, or whatever. This also doesn't stop another arguably "silly" form of powerstacking, namely the bonuses from the Warhorses (how can I get the effect from multiple warhorses if I can ride only one?). The point is, it's a game, with abstratctions representing different aspects of the fantasy world it's simulating, and they can be justified whichever way you choose, but mechanically, I personally, I believe in "inherent additivity" i.e. an effect or trait is additive unless it's inherently not, e.g. the Flail, also from the City. That way, cases like stacking rings and spellboks and warhorses are allowed, for fun and profit, while keeping an internal consistency. Sure, you could make it so that each instance of an effect only counts once, but it's more fun to say "yes" than "no". complice



#16 Froman

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:51 AM

The only fix the requires is a house rule - Any object that is purchasable cannot be alchimized for more then it was purchased for. Seems Simple to me.

 



#17 RiCHiE

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:00 PM

The warhorse stacking is the biggest concern and the most broken, but we apply for it all the same items etc in the city.  It really has made the game fairer and more enjoyable.

The Alchemist issue is definetly broken :(  Getting the warhorse and a few power items early makes him extremely powerful enough without stacking - with stacking a clever player can win the game very early.

Buy multiple war horses, wharf to crags and make your way through the dungeon - obtain cloak of feathers for the easy win!  

 



#18 Triakor

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 02:08 AM

My group banned the warhorse after the first use of it. We thought it was crazy.



#19 The_Warlock

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:50 AM

Triakor said:

My group banned the warhorse after the first use of it. We thought it was crazy.

Why do you think adding your Craft value to Strength in battle is crazy?

Losing a Warhorse when your character is weak is quite common and the bonus becomes less and less meaningful when the character is strong, so I think this Follower is all but broken.

 



#20 Triakor

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:34 AM

First time we played it, it wrecked. Maybe we should try again.






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