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cat of the canals


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#1 Robby Stark

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:08 PM

here's cat of the canals http://www.cardgamed...y_24_260634.jpg

in a card game, you can hardly be more ambiguous than ''card effect''. so what exactly is she immune to? or, if you will, what is she not immune to? plot cards? keywords? passives?



#2 Alando

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:25 PM

She's immune to almost everything. Plots, keywords, passives are all card effects. Only military claim (and modified claim like Pyat Pree) can remove her.



#3 ktom

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:03 PM

Said another way, if it's written on a card - any card - she's immune to it.



#4 Robby Stark

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:26 PM

bu this other guy above you said pyat pree can kill her! 



#5 Saturnine

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:33 PM

Robby Stark said:

bu this other guy above you said pyat pree can kill her! 

That's because Pyat Pree doesn't work directly on Cat. Pyat Pree replaces the claim effect, and Cat is not immune to claim, as it is a game mechanic.



#6 ktom

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:15 AM

Correct. Remember that immunity only covers direct effects. So while "if it is written on a card, Cat is immune to it," the definition of immunity limits that to things that go straight from the card to her. Pyat Pree goes from the card, to claim, to Cat. Because of that middle step, Cat's immunity doesn't help. 



#7 mdc273

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 07:01 AM

ktom said:

Correct. Remember that immunity only covers direct effects. So while "if it is written on a card, Cat is immune to it," the definition of immunity limits that to things that go straight from the card to her. Pyat Pree goes from the card, to claim, to Cat. Because of that middle step, Cat's immunity doesn't help. 

I always hated this ruling, but that's besides the point…

Another way to say it, Pyat Pree's ability does not actually do anything to Cat. Pyat Pree's ability modifies the framework action, to which Cat is not immune. Now why she is immune to deadly and stealth, which I think are also framework actions technically, I'm not sure. I'll let someone else elaborate on that.

You can mostly intuit what Cat is immune to (cards directly trying to "punch" her), but people are going to pull this kind of nonsense on you pretty consistently. The game's rulings are not particularly intuitive, but don't let it deter you. It'll work in your favor at times, for good or ill.



#8 ktom

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:01 AM

mdc273 said:

Now why she is immune to deadly and stealth, which I think are also framework actions technically, I'm not sure. I'll let someone else elaborate on that.
Stealth and deadly are not framework actions. They are keywords.

Now, the timing for Stealth appears on the flow charts so that people know where it fits in the overall structure, but that does not make it a "framework action/event" or game mechanic. Unless a card with the word "Stealth" on it is participating in the challenge, it doesn't happen. Let's say that again - no card, no stealth. That makes it a card effect.

Deadly there is even less support for it being a framework action because, not only does it appear nowhere on the flow charts, the FAQ specifically says "it's passive." Again, no card, no deadly. 

Granted, Stealth and Deadly are a little confusing because they are resolved as a single, collective effect (once at the appropriate time for all cards with the keyword, as opposed to multiple times, individually for each card with the keyword), but that doesn't change the overall fact of "no card, no keyword."



#9 mdc273

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:50 AM

So basically the framework action is examplary/a placeholder? Deadly and Stealth would technically be considered passives or something that resolve at those marked points? (Same of pretty much every keyword?)



#10 Bomb

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:22 AM

mdc273 said:

So basically the framework action is examplary/a placeholder? Deadly and Stealth would technically be considered passives or something that resolve at those marked points? (Same of pretty much every keyword?)

Stealth has it's own framework to initiate it in.  It is still a card effect that allows that character to declare a Stealth target.

This is similar to how a player action window is where you initiate "Phase X:" and "Any Phase:" effects. 

You still enter the "choose stealth targets" framework event in it's framework window like you would still enter each and every player action window.



#11 Robby Stark

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:09 PM

can cat of the canals defend agaisnt wex pyke?



#12 ktom

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:42 PM

Bomb said:

You still enter the "choose stealth targets" framework event in it's framework window like you would still enter each and every player action window.
Yes and no. You get to the place, but unless you have an attacker with the Stealth keyword, the framework event will not initiate successfully.



#13 ktom

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:44 PM

Robby Stark said:

can cat of the canals defend agaisnt wex pyke?
Yes, she can.



#14 Mitya

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:40 PM

Is "Cat of the Canals" immune to opponent's "Marched to the Wall" plot, given  that  she is only character you have in play/?



#15 thorin_81

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:19 PM

Yes, she is. A plot is a card, so Cat is immune to its effect (if Marched to the Wall is revealed by your opponent, off course)



#16 Mitya

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:43 AM

The problem is, people in my meta are arguing what "each player chooses and discards 1 of his or her characters from play" applies to the player, not the character. Any tips how to make sound argument? With Valar it's easy  -- it says "kill all characters", card effect, no questions asked.



#17 Khudzlin

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 07:25 PM

The targets of the effect are the characters: they are chosen. It doesn't matter who chooses them. There are cards which target players, like Red Vengeance or melee plots (Building/Summoning Season, Counting Favors, etc.). They all read "choose a player" or "choose an opponent", making the player in question the target.



#18 mdc273

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:39 AM

Mitya said:

The problem is, people in my meta are arguing what "each player chooses and discards 1 of his or her characters from play" applies to the player, not the character. Any tips how to make sound argument? With Valar it's easy  -- it says "kill all characters", card effect, no questions asked.

So there's a couple elements here that need some explanation.

"Each player" is templating that indicates that the subsequent effect is a unique and independent effect for each player. So instead of 1 effect that will fail if all players can't choose a character, you have multiple effects that fail individually if each player can't choose a character. "Each player" is not designating the object/target of the effect.

The actual effect is "Choose and discard 1 character from play". The "each player" designates that it is each player doing the choosing, again it's just text clarifying how "choose and discard" is executed. In this case each individual player is doing the choosing.

The actual effect is where Cat O' the Canals immunity kicks in. She is immune to opponent's card effects. The "choose and discard" effect is originating from an opponent's card and therefore she can not be chosen as a target as she is immune to the opponent's card effect.

Some of this was discussed in a recent clarification from Damon, but I don't remember what thread it was.



#19 Mitya

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:27 AM

Thanks for your explanation.






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