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Limiting the amount of manoeuvres per turn, yes or not?


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#1 Yepesnopes

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:44 AM

Hello all,

I always debate myself between limiting the amount of manoeuvres a character can take in a single round or not? I always tend to think it is fine as per raw, until a combat starts and my orcs cover the long distance separating them from the archer and the mage of the PC's group in a single round, just to inmediatelly attack them (since archers and mages tend to have poor melee skills, it usually has devastating effects).

The problem that I have encountered always when I have tried to limit the amount of manobvres per round, is that then the opposite occurs, the melee character can never reach the ranged characters (unles in a closed space of course).

So after reading the post of lordofthemilk I have finally seen a possibility of limiting the amount of manoeuvres per turn without boosting too much ranged characters.

That would be:

- Any one character can only spend 1 fatigue per round to obtain extra manoeuvres.

- All ranged weapons have the reload quality, those that already have the reload quality become reload 2, that is they need two consecutive manoeuvres to be reloaded.

- A mage /priest who cast a spell and chanels power /curries for favor does so by foregoing his free manoeubvre.

Any thoughts? loops? bugs? breaking the balance of combats as they are?

 

Cheers,

Yepes


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#2 Amehdaus

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:25 PM

Personally, I am in the camp that the rules work just fine by raw.

Those orcs that are spending fatigue (wounds) to advance into close combat, and the situation can be readily narrated as any archers/casters picking them with shafts and spells as they approach to explain those wounds.  It fits with the overall abstractions that are a stregth of the system (as long as you aren't tallying arrows).

I view the system treating a turn as "the amount of time the camera is centered on the actions of a specific character" and expending additional maneuvers is the means by which a character recieves additional screen time for a longer sequence.

However, even Fantasy Flight seems to agree that "unlimited" maneuvers is not intuitive.  The Star Wars: EotE system has exactly such a restriction and the whole design seems to have learned from what worked and didn't work in WFRP.  I do believe that if we saw a 3.5 edition of WFRP, just such a restriction would be included in core.

As for your modifications to reloading and casting, I cannot relate.  My playgroup has a phobia of  fatigue that belies their experience.  They would rather take wounds than even a single fatigue.  It baffles me -- not once has a character been so much as strained to instill such a fear.  I do see a strength to enforcing an active reload to weapons, however it is a harsh addition if included alongside a restriction to the number of maneuvers (although it does make the [bo][bo] of even a basic ranged attack a wonderful reward (free maneuver).

Likewise, the restriction to channeling/currying appears harsh alongside the limitation to maneuvers -- though only a minor inconvenience if included on its own.



#3 LordoftheMilk

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 09:48 PM

As I mentioned in my post, I would not give the reload quality to Repeater weapons. The point of them is precisely to be able to shoot without relaoding imho.

 

What is the rule limiting fatigue expendiure in SW?

 

 



#4 Yepesnopes

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 10:29 PM

LordoftheMilk said:

What is the rule limiting fatigue expendiure in SW?

In SW EotE you can only perform two manoeuvres per turn. You have one for free and to get a second one you can either forego your action or spend 2 strain.

 

Cheers,

Yepes

P.S: Yes, I agree with repeating weapons.


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#5 LordoftheMilk

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 10:53 PM

Thanks. I like your rules.



#6 Jericho

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:08 AM

Interesting thread.

I find that turns or rounds in WFRP v3 are "longer" (i.e. You can do a lot in only one turn.). When running, I would expect characters to be able to cover Long to Engaged in one round. That's four manoeuvres. Also, Athletics should be involved at some point. Athletic characters should be able to move faster and/or longer than others.

How about giving the opportunity to run (i.e. Double available Move Manoeuvres, so up to 4), by passing an Athletics check?

Yes this is an extra roll, but results could spice up fast movement by introducing mishaps (Banes) or even wounds (CS). Success would indicate that the character is able to use the 3 or 4 manoeuvres, paying fatigue as usual. Failure indicates he false starts or gets winded quickly and can only use the regular maximum 2 manoeuvres.

Regular NPCs would rarely use this rule. Limit their movement to a cautious 2 manoeuvres per round. If they do charge, just roll once per group of enemies. (Remember, enemies should be grouped in groups equalling the party size…)

As an added bonus, with this roll, you could introduce differentiation between races. Maybe Dwarfs and Halflings add a Misfortune to Run checks? Maybe Elves get a Fortune?

Anyhow, the difficulty of this check should be tailored on the fly according to circumstances. i.e. A Dwarf in knee deep snow should have a harder time running than the humans, for example.

I would aim for an average difficulty in a regular combat situation. (More or less flat terrain, a few obstacles, enemies running around) On open terrain with no obstacles but with gear on, an Easy check. A Dwarf runner in his adidak suit, on the Underway, a Simple check.


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#7 Jericho

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 10:11 AM

Just to follow up on the previous post.

You could even rule that on the Athletics check, a SC would give 1 extra manoeuvre (without fatigue even, if you feel lenient!).

To mirror that, a CS would remove one manoeuvre to the maximum attainable (still suffering the fatigue, if you feel harsh).

 

Example: Clem Shirestock, the valiant Halfling from the v1 introductory adventure, tries to bravely sprint away from the oncoming Valentina gang thugs in a back alley in Nuln. He wants to use 4 Move manoeuvres plus one manoeuvre to draw a pistol. The thugs are at close range and will use 2 Move manoeuvres on their turn.

The GM adjudicates that running full throttle down a trash ridden back alley is an Average check with 1 Misfortune for slippery mud. But he rules that as a Halfling, Clem is used to such environment and won't suffer as much from the cramped conditions (2 Fortune). Clem has 1 skill level in Athletics, being a thug himslef… :)

Clem rolls a pool result of 1 Success, 1 CS and 2 Boons! The GM rules that Clem cuts a foot on a sharp bit taking 1 Wound (CS), he may use a maximum of 3 Move manoeuvres (Success+CS) but the two boons give Clem a free manoeuvre (that doesn't up the maximum but does save Clem a fatigue point.

So Clems darts in the back alley as fast as he can, draws his pistol and cuts his foot, slowing down somewhat from the pain. He flees at  Long range from the thugs, takes two fatigue points and is ready to take a shot at them should they come in range…


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#8 dvang

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 11:25 AM

Personally, I think the only restriction needed is to limit the number of range bands that can be traversed in a single round, unless it would make sense in the story. Probably, limit it to a single band per round (not counting engaged).

for example, a PC could spend fatiuge to move from Extreme to Long in a single round (3 maneuvers), Long to Medium (2 maneuvers), or medium to Close (1 maneuver), or medium to close to engaged (2 maneuvers).   A PC could not maneuver from Extreme to Medium in a single round (5 maneuvers), however. Distance is the only real "problem" with using manuervers, IMO.

This will allow characters to still get into (or out of) melee somewhat quickly, but slows the process down to a slightly more realistic pace.



#9 Yepesnopes

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 08:12 PM

dvang said:

Personally, I think the only restriction needed is to limit the number of range bands that can be traversed in a single round, unless it would make sense in the story. Probably, limit it to a single band per round (not counting engaged).

for example, a PC could spend fatiuge to move from Extreme to Long in a single round (3 maneuvers), Long to Medium (2 maneuvers), or medium to Close (1 maneuver), or medium to close to engaged (2 maneuvers).   A PC could not maneuver from Extreme to Medium in a single round (5 maneuvers), however. Distance is the only real "problem" with using manuervers, IMO.

This will allow characters to still get into (or out of) melee somewhat quickly, but slows the process down to a slightly more realistic pace.

It is an interesting point, and esasy to modify such as a mount or other beast can move mora bands in a single round. Still, then one would have to fix the following: How can you ever catch an archer, who fires at you and then moves away one range band?


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#10 willmanx

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 03:11 AM

In our game (60+ sessions) :

Manoeuvers are RAW except that a character CAN'T spend extra manoeuver to move. A character who wants to move faster must spend an ACTION and make an ATHLETICS or COORDINATION test. Difficulty is determined by terrain quality. Each success earns you an extra move.

This makes sense with the "SWIFT" ability given to some creature (1 extra move manoeuver per turn).



#11 WrathofKaos

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:48 AM

There are a lot of good ideas in this thread.

Currently I just limit the max manoeuvers to the character's/creature's toughness. Although, I will think on these other options a little more.

 


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#12 willmanx

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:17 PM

limit the movement manoeuver to 1 per turn to avoid that high To dwarf run faster than an elf. Instead, make running an action :

  • athletics or coordination check
  • Difficulty set by the terrain
  • +1 movement per success

That's how we deal with maneuvers. We played 60+  4 hours sessions with our group.



#13 Yepesnopes

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:42 AM

willmanx said:

 

limit the movement manoeuver to 1 per turn to avoid that high To dwarf run faster than an elf. Instead, make running an action :

  • athletics or coordination check
  • Difficulty set by the terrain
  • +1 movement per success

That's how we deal with maneuvers. We played 60+  4 hours sessions with our group.

 

 

It is a very interesting option, not sure that a Coordination check it's the right check (I always thought about Coordination skill as a hand to eye coordination) but Athletics will work nicely for sure!

Although it involves one extra dice roll, I think I may try it.

Cheers,

Yepes


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#14 willmanx

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:49 AM

Thanks for your appreciation. high Ag character (ie elves) should run faster than high str (warriors ?) characters… In fact, I usually make a Athletics (AG) roll :)



#15 Yepesnopes

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:53 AM

willmanx said:

Thanks for your appreciation. high Ag character (ie elves) should run faster than high str (warriors ?) characters… In fact, I usually make a Athletics (AG) roll :)

I don't belive on this. Typically sprinters (and athelts in general) are characterized by their strength. I do not doubt coordination plays a role in sprinters and runner, but it is at best of second order of magnitude.

The problem with high Ag characters beign slow, like elves, is a problem that rises due to the oversimplification of wfrgp 3 rules. Bear in mind that by making high Ag characters fast (like elves) you are also making character like Halflings fast. 

Where coordination(ag) could be used insteat of athletics(St) is in dense forests or very crowded places.

Said that, if it works for you and your players find for me, but I will stick to Athletics(St) and I while give one fortunes to elves and one misfortune to dwarfs and halflings to represent their short legs. Indeed, in forest and crowded areas (like the streets of Altdorf) I think I will use coordination(ag).

Cheers,

Yepes

 


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#16 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:56 AM

I would be more willing to limit the number of movement maneuvers rather than maneuvers as a whole. 


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#17 willmanx

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:00 AM

Yepesnopes said:

willmanx said:

 

Thanks for your appreciation. high Ag character (ie elves) should run faster than high str (warriors ?) characters… In fact, I usually make a Athletics (AG) roll :)

 

 

I don't belive on this. Typically sprinters (and athelts in general) are characterized by their strength. I do not doubt coordination plays a role in sprinters and runner, but it is at best of second order of magnitude.

The problem with high Ag characters beign slow, like elves, is a problem that rises due to the oversimplification of wfrgp 3 rules. Bear in mind that by making high Ag characters fast (like elves) you are also making character like Halflings fast. 

Where coordination(ag) could be used insteat of athletics(St) is in dense forests or very crowded places.

Said that, if it works for you and your players find for me, but I will stick to Athletics(St) and I while give one fortunes to elves and one misfortune to dwarfs and halflings to represent their short legs. Indeed, in forest and crowded areas (like the streets of Altdorf) I think I will use coordination(ag).

Cheers,

Yepes

 

 

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#18 Mexorlon

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:49 AM

I was thinking on a diffrent approach….to make it more wfrp feel (slow dwarfs and fast elves) pehaps doing dwarf 1 movement, human 2, elf 3. Add fatigue when going above movement… Add 1 movement when specialized in athletics (running) 

Only allow 1 manoever pr round…

 

thats my 5 cent



#19 Yepesnopes

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 03:23 AM

Probably there is no One single formula that works, but more.

This weekend it is time for rpg marathon. I will be running a few wfpr 3 sessions and we will test the following formula (a combination of EotE and some suggestions found here):

1) Characters can only spend 1 fatigue per round to gain extra manoeuvres.

2) All ranged weapons need 1 manoeuvre to be reloaded. Those with the Reload quality need 2 manoeuvres instead.

 

I will post which has been our experience

Cheers,

Yepes


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#20 Yepesnopes

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:52 PM

Yepesnopes said:

 

Probably there is no One single formula that works, but more.

This weekend it is time for rpg marathon. I will be running a few wfpr 3 sessions and we will test the following formula (a combination of EotE and some suggestions found here):

1) Characters can only spend 1 fatigue per round to gain extra manoeuvres.

2) All ranged weapons need 1 manoeuvre to be reloaded. Those with the Reload quality need 2 manoeuvres instead.

 

I will post which has been our experience

Cheers,

Yepes

 

 

Well, that was done. The overall experience was good. I have to say that the new modifications worked nicely for our group which contains two arrchers. Innitially they were not so sure about it, but after four sessions, they recognized that the changes were for the good of the game. It makes combat more tactic for them, as well as they have to relay on other action cards, not only Rapid Fire.

Due to the nature of the scenarios we played, we could not test these changes in an oppen field enviroment where PCs and NPs start the combat far away from each other, and they have plenty of room to move around. This situation remains to be tested.

As final notes:

- I had to slightly modify Arrowstorm A&C and Rapid Fire A&C to make them fit into the rules. I will work on a similar modification for the One in Each Eye action card.

- Since Reload 2 for Crossbows and Blackpowder weapons is under some situations very restricitive when you combine it with the only 1 fatigue manoeuvre rule, I have devised a new talent that is a combination of the Rapid Reload and Ready talents from warhammer second edition.

 

All in all, we are happy with these changes into the mechanics. Looking forward to see if they work equally well in an oppen field enviroment.

 

Cheers,

Yepes


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