Jump to content



Photo

Framework Events


  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#1 Surge1000

Surge1000

    Member

  • Members
  • 106 posts

Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:01 PM

On page 30 of the rulebook, there is a definition for framework event.  I'm curious how you guys who frequent this forum would answer these questions, only because I'm having a bit of a debate about it right now with someone from a rules forum.

 

Based on the definition for framework event and the structure of the timing diagram on pages 30 and 31, would resolving strikes be considered a framework event?

What about  resolving fate cards?

Lastly, what about rewarding unopposed bonus?

 

Which qualify as framework events?  Some, all, none?  If one or more is disqualified, why?



#2 MasterJediAdam

MasterJediAdam

    Member

  • Members
  • 665 posts

Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:10 PM

Surge1000 said:

On page 30 of the rulebook, there is a definition for framework event.  I'm curious how you guys who frequent this forum would answer these questions, only because I'm having a bit of a debate about it right now with someone from a rules forum.

 

Based on the definition for framework event and the structure of the timing diagram on pages 30 and 31, would resolving strikes be considered a framework event?

What about  resolving fate cards?

Lastly, what about rewarding unopposed bonus?

 

Which qualify as framework events?  Some, all, none?  If one or more is disqualified, why?

The actual act of resolving a strike is a framework event, because once the resolution has begun no player actions can be taken unless expressly triggered by that event.

Resolving fate cards is also a framework event for the same reason mentioned above - once both players pass and resolution begins, no other actions may be taken unless triggered specifically.

Rewarding Unopposed bonus for the same reason above.


Welcome to the machine!


#3 ziggy2000

ziggy2000

    Member

  • Members
  • 737 posts

Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:38 PM

I'm with MasterJediAdam above.

I think they ran out of space for the Engagement Resolution timing chart. Resolving Strikes for each player has its own "box". But the other actions you ask about are the ONLY ones where multiple steps are combined into one "box". I think if they'd had the room, that "Reveal edge stacks", "Resolve fate cards", and "Resolve edge battle" would have each had their own "box", making each one a framework event. Likewise with "Check for surviving units" and "Reward unopposed bonus". So my answer is yes, even though there are multiple actions within a framework event, each one of them counts as a framework event.

This is so subtle as to be almost ludicrous. Why would any of this make a difference, anyway?

 



#4 Surge1000

Surge1000

    Member

  • Members
  • 106 posts

Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:30 PM

ziggy2000 said:

This is so subtle as to be almost ludicrous. Why would any of this make a difference, anyway?

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to lead you down the rabbit hole.  I'm not focusing on singular versus mutiple effects in one framework event box.  My question is really about as plain as it is written, and my curiousity is genuine.  After I receive a little bit more feedback, I'll elaborate more as to why the question, or the answer, more precisely, is important in relation to what we are able to glean from RAW.

 

Thanks for the input so far.  Please keep it coming,  and I'd be really curious to hear any dissenting opinions.  I don't want to offer my opinion or add further to the question/discussion now so as to avoid bias.



#5 stormwolf27

stormwolf27

    Member

  • Members
  • 623 posts

Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:14 PM

Surge1000 said:

On page 30 of the rulebook, there is a definition for framework event.  I'm curious how you guys who frequent this forum would answer these questions, only because I'm having a bit of a debate about it right now with someone from a rules forum.

 

Based on the definition for framework event and the structure of the timing diagram on pages 30 and 31, would resolving strikes be considered a framework event?

What about  resolving fate cards?

Lastly, what about rewarding unopposed bonus?

 

Which qualify as framework events?  Some, all, none?  If one or more is disqualified, why?

Technically resolving fate cards doesn't qualify as its own framework event, simply due to the fact that it is part of the *resolve edge battle* framework event. (yes, I know I'm being nitpicky, but so are a lot of the people on here, and I'm one of the few that will be nice about it).

Other than the technicality, all qualify. Bearing in mind, however, that not *all* strikes are resollved in the same framework event. There are player actions before/after each unit strike.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#6 Holliday88

Holliday88

    Member

  • Members
  • 156 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:32 AM

Surge1000 said:

On page 30 of the rulebook, there is a definition for framework event.  I'm curious how you guys who frequent this forum would answer these questions, only because I'm having a bit of a debate about it right now with someone from a rules forum.

 

Based on the definition for framework event and the structure of the timing diagram on pages 30 and 31, would resolving strikes be considered a framework event?

What about  resolving fate cards?

Lastly, what about rewarding unopposed bonus?

 

Which qualify as framework events?  Some, all, none?  If one or more is disqualified, why?

 

Based on the diagram, all of what you mention are framework events (the edge battle, resolving strikes and rewarding unopposed) and only cards that are interrupts/reactions may be played during these events (unless they specifically state they may be played during that time.)

 


North Carolina Facebook Group

Join the resource for connecting players across NC.


#7 dbmeboy

dbmeboy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,354 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:14 AM

Surge1000 said:

On page 30 of the rulebook, there is a definition for framework event.  I'm curious how you guys who frequent this forum would answer these questions, only because I'm having a bit of a debate about it right now with someone from a rules forum.

 

Based on the definition for framework event and the structure of the timing diagram on pages 30 and 31, would resolving strikes be considered a framework event?

What about  resolving fate cards?

Lastly, what about rewarding unopposed bonus?

 

Which qualify as framework events?  Some, all, none?  If one or more is disqualified, why?

Resolving a strike certainly is a framework event.  Why that's relevant is that it means you can't skip striking if you have a ready unit in the engagement (framework events cannot be skipped) in addition to not being able to leave the "resolve strikes" step unfocused.

Resolving fate cards is at least part of a framework event.  Same with rewarding the unopposed bonus.

Note that the significance of framework events is that they are mandatory/cannot be skipped and cannot have Actions used during them.  Given that, I'm having trouble seeing any difference between calling things like resolving fate cards framework events and substeps of framework events.  Either way, they're mandatory and can't have actions used.



#8 ziggy2000

ziggy2000

    Member

  • Members
  • 737 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:34 AM

Surge1000 said:

ziggy2000 said:

This is so subtle as to be almost ludicrous. Why would any of this make a difference, anyway?

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to lead you down the rabbit hole.  I'm not focusing on singular versus mutiple effects in one framework event box.  My question is really about as plain as it is written, and my curiousity is genuine.  After I receive a little bit more feedback, I'll elaborate more as to why the question, or the answer, more precisely, is important in relation to what we are able to glean from RAW.

 

Thanks for the input so far.  Please keep it coming,  and I'd be really curious to hear any dissenting opinions.  I don't want to offer my opinion or add further to the question/discussion now so as to avoid bias.

Hey Surge, I'm sorry if I came off harshly in my comment. I certainly was not calling you ludicrous. As one of the most thoughtful and precise posters on here, you always provide good arguments on both sides of any question. I was just really wondering why such a subtlety would have an impact on the RAW. I guess I will have to be patient and you will reveal all in time.



#9 Surge1000

Surge1000

    Member

  • Members
  • 106 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:44 PM

stormwolf27 said:

 

Technically resolving fate cards doesn't qualify as its own framework event, simply due to the fact that it is part of the *resolve edge battle* framework event. (yes, I know I'm being nitpicky, but so are a lot of the people on here, and I'm one of the few that will be nice about it).

 

 

 

I'd like you to expand on your supposition if you would, please.  In the diagram on page 31, there is what appears to be a framework event text box that says, "Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards and resolve edge battle."

 

Are none of those framework events because they share the same text box?  Is "resolve fate cards" alone not a framework event?  Or are you saying that they're all framework events, but resolving any particular fate card during the "resolve fate cards" framework event would not qualify as a framework effect?

 

If the latter is the case, would resolving any specific icon on a card being focused to strike also not qualify as a framework effect (e.g. dealing unit damage as a result of resolving a strike)?

 

For whatever you believe is the most correct answer, what RAW-based reasons support it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#10 dbmeboy

dbmeboy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,354 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:52 PM

Surge1000 said:

stormwolf27 said:

 

Technically resolving fate cards doesn't qualify as its own framework event, simply due to the fact that it is part of the *resolve edge battle* framework event. (yes, I know I'm being nitpicky, but so are a lot of the people on here, and I'm one of the few that will be nice about it).

 

 

 

I'd like you to expand on your supposition if you would, please.  In the diagram on page 31, there is what appears to be a framework event text box that says, "Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards and resolve edge battle."

 

Are none of those framework events because they share the same text box?  Is "resolve fate cards" alone not a framework event?  Or are you saying that they're all framework events, but resolving any particular fate card during the "resolve fate cards" framework event would not qualify as a framework effect?

 

If the latter is the case, would resolving any specific icon on a card being focused to strike also not qualify as a framework effect (e.g. dealing unit damage as a result of resolving a strike)?

 

For whatever you believe is the most correct answer, what RAW-based reasons support it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since you're wanting to be very picky with terminology, there's no such thing as a framework effect. Wasn't sure if that was relevant to wherever you're going or just typing quickly.

#11 Surge1000

Surge1000

    Member

  • Members
  • 106 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:15 PM

dbmeboy said:

 

Since you're wanting to be very picky with terminology, there's no such thing as a framework effect. Wasn't sure if that was relevant to wherever you're going or just typing quickly.

 

 

I'm actually quite glad you said that.  It is relevant to where I'm going.  I promise, I'm not trying to be cryptic just for the sake of it.  This is going somewhere; I just want to establish a base understanding of the concept of framework events to see if there is any perceived ambiguity in relation to the concept first.

 

Nonetheless, I'm curious how anyone could determine that resolving a strike is a framework event but resolving a fate card is not based upon RAW alone.  If such an argument can be logically deduced from the only info we have at this time, it may be something I missed.  If it is, I really want to understand where my thought process is flawed.



#12 dbmeboy

dbmeboy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,354 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:39 PM

Surge1000 said:

dbmeboy said:

 

Since you're wanting to be very picky with terminology, there's no such thing as a framework effect. Wasn't sure if that was relevant to wherever you're going or just typing quickly.

 

 

I'm actually quite glad you said that.  It is relevant to where I'm going.  I promise, I'm not trying to be cryptic just for the sake of it.  This is going somewhere; I just want to establish a base understanding of the concept of framework events to see if there is any perceived ambiguity in relation to the concept first.

 

Nonetheless, I'm curious how anyone could determine that resolving a strike is a framework event but resolving a fate card is not based upon RAW alone.  If such an argument can be logically deduced from the only info we have at this time, it may be something I missed.  If it is, I really want to understand where my though process is flawed.

You could call "Resolve one strike" a framework event while "Resolve one fate card" is not a framework event by a very strict reading of pg 30 combined with the layout of the chart.  Arguably, the relevant framework event for fate cards is the entire phrase: "Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards, and resolve edge battle."  Of course, the resolving the edge battle framework event has several steps which include resolving fate cards… just like resolving a strike has several steps per pg 20:

"To resolve a strike, a player follows these steps in order.
1. He chooses one of his participating ready units.
2. He focuses the unit to strike (i.e. places a focus
token on the card).
3. He resolves the striking unit’s combat icons by type."

And then step 3 of that itself has another full page of instructions.



#13 Surge1000

Surge1000

    Member

  • Members
  • 106 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:48 PM

dbmeboy said:

 

Surge1000 said:

 

dbmeboy said:

 

Since you're wanting to be very picky with terminology, there's no such thing as a framework effect. Wasn't sure if that was relevant to wherever you're going or just typing quickly.

 

 

I'm actually quite glad you said that.  It is relevant to where I'm going.  I promise, I'm not trying to be cryptic just for the sake of it.  This is going somewhere; I just want to establish a base understanding of the concept of framework events to see if there is any perceived ambiguity in relation to the concept first.

 

Nonetheless, I'm curious how anyone could determine that resolving a strike is a framework event but resolving a fate card is not based upon RAW alone.  If such an argument can be logically deduced from the only info we have at this time, it may be something I missed.  If it is, I really want to understand where my though process is flawed.

 

 

You could call "Resolve one strike" a framework event while "Resolve one fate card" is not a framework event by a very strict reading of pg 30 combined with the layout of the chart.  Arguably, the relevant framework event for fate cards is the entire phrase: "Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards, and resolve edge battle."  Of course, the resolving the edge battle framework event has several steps which include resolving fate cards… just like resolving a strike has several steps per pg 20:

"To resolve a strike, a player follows these steps in order.
1. He chooses one of his participating ready units.
2. He focuses the unit to strike (i.e. places a focus
token on the card).
3. He resolves the striking unit’s combat icons by type."

And then step 3 of that itself has another full page of instructions.

 

 

 

Interesting.

 

So, resolve fate cards is a framework event, and resolve one strike is a framework event, right?

 

 

Resolving ONE strike, dealing one unit damage and one blast damage from a Nightsister unit IS a framework event.

Resolving a Twist of Fate is NOT a framework event.

 

Is that what you would deduce from RAW?

 

 

 



#14 dbmeboy

dbmeboy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,354 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:03 PM

Surge1000 said:

 

Interesting.

 

So, resolve fate cards is a framework event, and resolve one strike is a framework event, right?

 

 

Resolving ONE strike, dealing one unit damage and one blast damage from a Nightsister unit IS a framework event.

Resolving a Twist of Fate is NOT a framework event.

 

Is that what you would deduce from RAW?

 

 

 

Can't quite find that in RAW. 

Resolving one strike is a framework event that involves multiple substeps, one of which also has substeps which (in the case of Nightsister) would include a (now) subsubstep of resolving one unit damage and a subsubstep of resolving one blast damage.

Likewise, "Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards, and resolve edge battle," is a framework event which has multiple substeps, one of which is "Resolve fate cards."  Resolving fate cards itself could potentially have multiple substeps if there are multiple fate cards to resolve.

By strictest reading of the rules at least, though nothing in the rules gives framework events any significance beyond can't skip and can't initiate actions so by strictest reading of the rules the distinction doesn't matter…

 

 



#15 Surge1000

Surge1000

    Member

  • Members
  • 106 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:53 PM

dbmeboy said:

  Can't quite find that in RAW. 

Resolving one strike is a framework event that involves multiple substeps, one of which also has substeps which (in the case of Nightsister) would include a (now) subsubstep of resolving one unit damage and a subsubstep of resolving one blast damage.

Likewise, "Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards, and resolve edge battle," is a framework event which has multiple substeps, one of which is "Resolve fate cards."  Resolving fate cards itself could potentially have multiple substeps if there are multiple fate cards to resolve.

By strictest reading of the rules at least, though nothing in the rules gives framework events any significance beyond can't skip and can't initiate actions so by strictest reading of the rules the distinction doesn't matter…

 

You've just accurately described my opinion on the matter as well.  Without fundamentally restructuring certain phases or without adding new definitions to the rules, I don't think one can logically discern otherwise. 

 

Nonetheless, I was hoping someone with a dissenting opinion could convince me otherwise.  I'm hoping Stormwolf27 will share his reasoning.



#16 stormwolf27

stormwolf27

    Member

  • Members
  • 623 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:49 PM

Surge1000 said:

stormwolf27 said:

 

Technically resolving fate cards doesn't qualify as its own framework event, simply due to the fact that it is part of the *resolve edge battle* framework event. (yes, I know I'm being nitpicky, but so are a lot of the people on here, and I'm one of the few that will be nice about it).

 

 

 

I'd like you to expand on your supposition if you would, please.  In the diagram on page 31, there is what appears to be a framework event text box that says, "Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards and resolve edge battle."

 

Are none of those framework events because they share the same text box?  Is "resolve fate cards" alone not a framework event?  Or are you saying that they're all framework events, but resolving any particular fate card during the "resolve fate cards" framework event would not qualify as a framework effect?

 

If the latter is the case, would resolving any specific icon on a card being focused to strike also not qualify as a framework effect (e.g. dealing unit damage as a result of resolving a strike)?

 

For whatever you believe is the most correct answer, what RAW-based reasons support it?

 

There's that acronym again… I'm not familiar with RAW or RAI or anything similar when trying to interpret rules. I'm assuming, though, that it has something to do with wording vs. intention, or something along those lines…

Moving forward, I'm not sure what else you would like me to contribute to this conversation… Framework events are occurences in a game that cannot be avoided (can be skipped through certain card effects in other LCGs, but nothing I'm aware of in this one yet), and cannot be interrupted except by appropriate interrupts, to use SW:LCG terminology. Most reactions occur after framework events, not during, and between framework events (usually, but with a few exceptions where there is no window between), you can perform player actions.

the "Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards and resolve edge battle" framework event is just that… ONE framework event with 3 parts (and multiple subparts as dbmeboy pointed out, if you have several fate cards in the stack).

resolving fate cards is not it's own framework event because it is a step inside the "Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards and resolve edge battle" framework event.

In any game that uses the unique structure of FFG's LCGs, framework events are broken down into steps. I think what's tripping you up (and probably would me, if I weren't familiar with FFG's structures through hours and hours of rules debates in my local meta about AGoT) is that the engagement resolution window is full of it's own framework events and action windows. Just treat it as an optional "phase" for the  purposes of interpreting the rules as far as those framework/windows are concerned.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#17 ziggy2000

ziggy2000

    Member

  • Members
  • 737 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:54 PM

stormwolf27 said:

 

Surge1000 said:

 

stormwolf27 said:

 

Technically resolving fate cards doesn't qualify as its own framework event, simply due to the fact that it is part of the *resolve edge battle* framework event. (yes, I know I'm being nitpicky, but so are a lot of the people on here, and I'm one of the few that will be nice about it).

 

 

 

I'd like you to expand on your supposition if you would, please.  In the diagram on page 31, there is what appears to be a framework event text box that says, "Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards and resolve edge battle."

 

Are none of those framework events because they share the same text box?  Is "resolve fate cards" alone not a framework event?  Or are you saying that they're all framework events, but resolving any particular fate card during the "resolve fate cards" framework event would not qualify as a framework effect?

 

If the latter is the case, would resolving any specific icon on a card being focused to strike also not qualify as a framework effect (e.g. dealing unit damage as a result of resolving a strike)?

 

For whatever you believe is the most correct answer, what RAW-based reasons support it?

 

 

 

There's that acronym again… I'm not familiar with RAW or RAI or anything similar when trying to interpret rules. I'm assuming, though, that it has something to do with wording vs. intention, or something along those lines…

Moving forward, I'm not sure what else you would like me to contribute to this conversation… Framework events are occurences in a game that cannot be avoided (can be skipped through certain card effects in other LCGs, but nothing I'm aware of in this one yet), and cannot be interrupted except by appropriate interrupts, to use SW:LCG terminology. Most reactions occur after framework events, not during, and between framework events (usually, but with a few exceptions where there is no window between), you can perform player actions.

the "Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards and resolve edge battle" framework event is just that… ONE framework event with 3 parts (and multiple subparts as dbmeboy pointed out, if you have several fate cards in the stack).

resolving fate cards is not it's own framework event because it is a step inside the "Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards and resolve edge battle" framework event.

In any game that uses the unique structure of FFG's LCGs, framework events are broken down into steps. I think what's tripping you up (and probably would me, if I weren't familiar with FFG's structures through hours and hours of rules debates in my local meta about AGoT) is that the engagement resolution window is full of it's own framework events and action windows. Just treat it as an optional "phase" for the  purposes of interpreting the rules as far as those framework/windows are concerned.

 

 

RAW = Rules As Written

RAI = Rules As Intended

So your interpretation of the acronyms is spot on. I think.

I was going to bring up the timing charts from AGoT (which are published in the FAQ rather than the core ruleset) because they go into much more detail. It is interesting to note that in the "Framework Action Window" there are "Framework Events" that occur in a specific order. I find it interesting that, if you take the SW charts on pages 30 and 31 at face value, they changed the "framework event" to include more than one step, i.e."Reveal edge stacks, resolve fate cards and resolve edge battle". The AGoT charts are much more granular, and include exact points where save/cancels, passive abilities, and responses can occur. I stand by my original thought that there was not enough space in the core rulebook to fully expand the charts to explain the framework actions fully (though there was certainly enough room for all the fluff in the first pages…).

I think I see where this is going, but I'm not sure.

 

 



#18 stormwolf27

stormwolf27

    Member

  • Members
  • 623 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:33 PM

There are several things such as this that I'm sure will be in the FAQ, when they finally release it. Without sounding like a broken record, I can't really say any more as far as my interpretation of the flowcharts going from my knowledge of the AGoT ones. Hopefully they will print a more detailed account of the framework windows and action windows then.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#19 dbmeboy

dbmeboy

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,354 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:37 PM

I'm not sure the stormwolf and my answers are actually any different… we both agree that resolving a strike is a framework event and resolving fate cards is a substep in a framework event.  Stormwolf, would you agree that resolving a specific combat icon type is also a substep of the "resolve strike" framework event and not in and of itself a framework event?



#20 stormwolf27

stormwolf27

    Member

  • Members
  • 623 posts

Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:16 AM

dbmeboy said:

I'm not sure the stormwolf and my answers are actually any different… we both agree that resolving a strike is a framework event and resolving fate cards is a substep in a framework event.  Stormwolf, would you agree that resolving a specific combat icon type is also a substep of the "resolve strike" framework event and not in and of itself a framework event?

I would, indeed. I think, if and when they release a flowchart of the timing structure like they did for AGot, where they include the different steps with response/interrupt opportunities, it will become much clearer.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS