Jump to content



Photo

Swift & Lightning Attack: DW vs. BC


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 TechVoid

TechVoid

    Member

  • Members
  • 267 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 01:43 AM

Hi folks,

I try to include some BC rules within my DW campaign. After using the BC rules for ranged attack (single shot +10, semi +0 and full-auto -10) I wonder about swift and lightning attack.

I like the idea to treat the melee combat similarly to the ranged attacks: Degreee of success indicates the number of hits.

But now I wonder if lightning attack is not too powerfull. Let's say you have an assault marine (WS 50) facing a huge target. Since lightning attack (-10) is a half action the player can also choose to aim (+10) and since the enemy is huge another +10 bonus is granted. Thus it is possible to make as many hits as with a heavy bolter?! If you go for two-weapon fighting it is even twice that number of hits?!

Even if the weapon properties lead to a lower penetration the bonus damage becomes also incredible high!?

Do I miss something or is the BC melee system not meant for DW?

Cheers.

-- TechVoid.



#2 Cifer

Cifer

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,799 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:14 AM

Considering that previously in DW, the solution to any problem is "Unload the Heavy Bolter into it", I don't think it's that much of a problem. Additionally, melee attacks can be both dodged and parried - and Parry is a skill now, which goes up to +30 in addition to Balanced or Defensive melee weapons.



#3 TechVoid

TechVoid

    Member

  • Members
  • 267 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:58 AM

Cifer said:

Considering that previously in DW, the solution to any problem is "Unload the Heavy Bolter into it", I don't think it's that much of a problem. Additionally, melee attacks can be both dodged and parried - and Parry is a skill now, which goes up to +30 in addition to Balanced or Defensive melee weapons.

Well, that is why I use the errata weapon stats which correspond to the BC stats. In addition with the downgrading of full auto (-10 BS) it seems to me more solid.

That is why I am this curious if the melee attack is now overpowered. ;)

Yes, your comment is true about Dodge and Parry, but yesterday an assault marine has been in melee with a Tyranid Warrior which does not posses Dodge at all. Thus I had to dodge with half Agility which is then 22.

Well I think about it…

Cheers,

-- TechVoid



#4 BrotharTearer

BrotharTearer

    Member

  • Members
  • 489 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 08:23 AM

If you feel like a tyranid *warrior* needs dodge or parry as a skill, give it to them. Would make sense.



#5 Darth Smeg

Darth Smeg

    Lord Nitpicker

  • Members
  • 1,712 posts

Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:35 PM

Also note that (at least in OW) you cannot make Lightning Attacks with Unwieldy weapons. Can't recall if Unbalanced are ok, but at least you'll not be doing Lightning hits with the largest weapons.


Tarald - The Dark Lord of Smeg

You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on

 

My House Rules for using Only War (and more) for Dark Heresy games


#6 TechVoid

TechVoid

    Member

  • Members
  • 267 posts

Posted 04 February 2013 - 12:53 AM

Yes, I agree that Lightning Attacks seems not that overpowered. I am still just curiouse that it is a half action (like nearly any action now?) which allows it to move.

Still with the rules of Deathwatch, Lightning Attack with three attacks was pretty powerful. But it is useless against highly mobile enemies since you can only move 'or' make a lightning attack, since it is a full action.

Now you can follow your opponent, attack multiple times and even try to get a step back with Assassin's Strike.

At least you cannot combine it with Charge, which is possible for Swift Attack.

Cheers,

-- TechVoid.



#7 Cifer

Cifer

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,799 posts

Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:37 AM

@TechVoid

Well, move is a relative term - after all, a half action propels you only so far. It's nice that your enemy can't stand two metres away from you, unload his shotgun at point blank range and only have one retaliatory attack to fear, but you still can't safely cross a hallway and hack away at your enemy. Which is as it should be, IMO.



#8 Darth Smeg

Darth Smeg

    Lord Nitpicker

  • Members
  • 1,712 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:40 AM

TechVoid said:

At least you cannot combine it with Charge, which is possible for Swift Attack.

Not according to the Errata, where FFG removed this possible combo. Probably because of some other combo which made it very powerful, but personally I ignore this nerf and allow charge with Swift.

Otherwise Charge becomes much too useless :)


Tarald - The Dark Lord of Smeg

You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on

 

My House Rules for using Only War (and more) for Dark Heresy games


#9 TechVoid

TechVoid

    Member

  • Members
  • 267 posts

Posted 05 February 2013 - 10:11 PM

Darth Smeg said:

Not according to the Errata, where FFG removed this possible combo. Probably because of some other combo which made it very powerful, but personally I ignore this nerf and allow charge with Swift.

Otherwise Charge becomes much too useless :)

I guess it is a matter of taste what you consider to be 'powerful' :)

One of my first thoughts was, that the Talent Preternatural Speed becomes pretty useless, since you can combine movement (even charge) with Swift Attack. Then I noticed that Preternatural Speed is pretty nerfed in BC. Since we do try to get rid of a battle map, this increase of movement seems pretty useless to us. ;)

So, with the nerf of the Charge, the old version of Preternatural Speed, from Deathwatch, becomes interesting again.

Cheers,

-- TechVoid



#10 H.B.M.C.

H.B.M.C.

    Freelance Writer/Play-Tester

  • Members
  • 1,499 posts

Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:43 AM

In your example (WS50 Marine) you wouldn't be able to get more than 5 hits in combat with a Lightning Attack because the BC rules limit melee hits to your WS Bonus. Now obviously there's no such thing as a WS Bonus in Deathwatch, but if you're going to port the BC/OW method of resolving attacks across, then tyou should bring the restrictions along with it.

And I doubt it will be too powerful, as now adversaries would only need to succeed in a single Dodge/Parry Test to negate your Lightning Attack, whereas now it'd be one Dodge/Parry to avoid one, and then they'd be out of reactions to avoid the other two.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#11 Darth Smeg

Darth Smeg

    Lord Nitpicker

  • Members
  • 1,712 posts

Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:21 AM

H.B.M.C. said:

And I doubt it will be too powerful, as now adversaries would only need to succeed in a single Dodge/Parry Test to negate your Lightning Attack, whereas now it'd be one Dodge/Parry to avoid one, and then they'd be out of reactions to avoid the other two.

BYE

Now each Degree of Success on the Dodge/Parry test negates one hit from the Lightning Attack. So a simple success negates one hit only, but if the attacker actually manages to score 5 hits, as the maximum you mentioned, you would need to score 4 additional DoS beyond that simple success.


Tarald - The Dark Lord of Smeg

You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on

 

My House Rules for using Only War (and more) for Dark Heresy games


#12 H.B.M.C.

H.B.M.C.

    Freelance Writer/Play-Tester

  • Members
  • 1,499 posts

Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:45 PM

I know that. The point I was making was that you can Dodge all the incoming attacks from a Swift/Lightning Attack with a single Test, rather than Dodging one, and then being at the mercy of the followups.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS