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Uniqueness during setup


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#1 Sixshot

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:32 AM

So I am sure that uniqueness on cards is checked in setup, I cannot find any rule to support this in either the main book or the faq online.  Since the rules do state setup is not a "put into play or played" situation, and those are the situations where uniqueness is checked, I would like the official explanation for why a player could not play two of the same card during setup.



#2 Alando

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:46 AM

It's on page 9 on the core set rules: "You may only place one card with the “Limited” keyword during this step and you may not place duplicates of unique cards".



#3 Sixshot

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:08 PM

Ok, I guess that sentece could be read that way.  I had understood it as referring to duplicates as attachments, not as characters/lands/etc.  I was hoping for some ruling or clarification beyond that in the rules somewhere.



#4 ktom

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:23 AM

Sixshot said:

Since the rules do state setup is not a "put into play or played" situation, and those are the situations where uniqueness is checked, I would like the official explanation for why a player could not play two of the same card during setup.
The official explanation is exactly what Alando pointed out in the rules. There are two ways to look at this rule:

Plain English: since the out-of-game definition of "duplicate" is "two of the same thing," saying that you cannot place "duplicates" of unique cards during setup plainly means "no second copy of unique cards by title."

Game Logic: you are correct that revealing cards in setup is not "playing" or "putting into play." However, when you reveal those cards, they do enter play - all at the same time. Two copies of a unique card cannot enter play at the same time as characters, locations, etc. So the general interpretation of the "except for dupes" part of the rules for unique (as informally verified by FFG for about 10 years now) is that when two copies of a unique card enter play at the same time (or through a subsequent, legal "play" or "put into play" action), one copy becomes a duplicate on the other. So, since they only way you could resolve the two copies of the unique cards entering play when you reveal the cards you place for setup is for one to become a duplicate on the other, the rule saying that you cannot place "duplicates" of unique cards during setup can be taken literally (using game terminology) as well.

 

So no, there is no loophole in the rules of unique that you can exploit during setup.



#5 mdc273

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:20 AM

ktom said:

Sixshot said:

Since the rules do state setup is not a "put into play or played" situation, and those are the situations where uniqueness is checked, I would like the official explanation for why a player could not play two of the same card during setup.

The official explanation is exactly what Alando pointed out in the rules. There are two ways to look at this rule:

 

Plain English: since the out-of-game definition of "duplicate" is "two of the same thing," saying that you cannot place "duplicates" of unique cards during setup plainly means "no second copy of unique cards by title."

Game Logic: you are correct that revealing cards in setup is not "playing" or "putting into play." However, when you reveal those cards, they do enter play - all at the same time. Two copies of a unique card cannot enter play at the same time as characters, locations, etc. So the general interpretation of the "except for dupes" part of the rules for unique (as informally verified by FFG for about 10 years now) is that when two copies of a unique card enter play at the same time (or through a subsequent, legal "play" or "put into play" action), one copy becomes a duplicate on the other. So, since they only way you could resolve the two copies of the unique cards entering play when you reveal the cards you place for setup is for one to become a duplicate on the other, the rule saying that you cannot place "duplicates" of unique cards during setup can be taken literally (using game terminology) as well.

 

So no, there is no loophole in the rules of unique that you can exploit during setup.

Did you just say you can set up dupes?



#6 ktom

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:44 AM

mdc273 said:

Did you just say you can set up dupes?
No. Remembering that the rules say "you cannot place duplicates during setup," I'm not entirely sure which part of "no, there is no loophole in the rules of unique that you can exploit during setup" implied I thought you could?

~ Which post are you reading? complice



#7 mdc273

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:57 AM

ktom said:

 

No. Remembering that the rules say "you cannot place duplicates during setup," I'm not entirely sure which part of "no, there is no loophole in the rules of unique that you can exploit during setup" implied I thought you could?

 

~ Which post are you reading? complice

 

 

I honestly get a bit confused reading your posts at times. Like here I saw you say there are no loopholes, but I wasn't clear if the putting a dupe during setup was a non-loophole that resulted in duping. Like if your conclusion had been, "There is no way, loophole or otherwise, to set up a 'duplicate' (Game of Thrones context) or a duplicate of a unique card (traditional context).", it would've been clearer to me. I assume that's what your explanation ultimately means? It's how we've always played it.






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