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Several questions about The Redhorn Gate


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#1 drasen

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:08 AM

I have been enjoying The Redhorn Gate Adventure Pack during the weekend and several questions  have arisen:

1. Can one place progress tokens on Caradhras by means of card effects (e.g. Northern Tracker) while this location is in the staging area during stages 1 and 2 of the mission?

2. I have problems concerning what happens when Caradhras becomes the active locations once one places the eleventh progrees token on stage 2B of the mission, which normally happens at the end of a quest phase (that is, after the quest has been resolved and the total will has been computed and the results have been applied). Does the quest phase finishes at the moment at which the results of the quest are applied, so as the characters are no longer committed to the quest once Caradhras becomes active? The point is that once Caradhras is the active location, all "questing characters" must detract -1 from their will (and if the will of any character becomes 0 then that character dies). But if Caradhras becoming the active location is considered to occur after the quest phase is finished, then one has not got to worry about the fate of the characters that quested succesfuly previously in the round, beacause they are no longer committed to quest (albeit exhausted).

3. If a character is forcibly committed to quest by the effect of Avalanche! and his/her modified will is 0 or below, then that character dies?

4. The Forced 1 damage inflicted by Snow Warg on the defending character is independent  and previous of any other damage that it may cause during the resolution of  its attack?

5. What is considered a Shadow card without effect in the case of the attack of Mountain Warg? Is it only a card with no Shadow effect written on it or also any card whose shadow effect does not apply in the particular situation.

Thanks in advance.



#2 Kroepian

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:49 PM

Hey, 1.The Caradhras Card doesnt say otherwise so yes. But remember. If you explore the Caradrhas before the Quest card tellst you to make it the active location, you have to get it back from your victory pile into play. So you have to walk through it again. 2.When you place the 11th progress token during the Quest Phase (Quest resolution is part of the quest phase) and Caradhras becomes the active location you are still in the Quest phase and alls your characters, that were commited to the quest are still commited. So yes: The Cadadrahs reduces the willpower of your characters by 1. 3. Yes, but only if you are in stage 3, of course. 4. Yes you always deal one damage to the defending hero. The outcome of the rest of the attack is irrelevant. 5.Even if a card has no "shadow"text it is still considered a shadowcard in the combat phase. So your first idea was right. The Mountain Wargs ability triggers only when you have a shadow cards, that has so shadow-text. hope i could help

#3 drasen

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:35 PM

Kroepian said:

Hey, 1.The Caradhras Card doesnt say otherwise so yes. But remember. If you explore the Caradrhas before the Quest card tellst you to make it the active location, you have to get it back from your victory pile into play. So you have to walk through it again. 2.When you place the 11th progress token during the Quest Phase (Quest resolution is part of the quest phase) and Caradhras becomes the active location you are still in the Quest phase and alls your characters, that were commited to the quest are still commited. So yes: The Cadadrahs reduces the willpower of your characters by 1. 3. Yes, but only if you are in stage 3, of course. 4. Yes you always deal one damage to the defending hero. The outcome of the rest of the attack is irrelevant. 5.Even if a card has no "shadow"text it is still considered a shadowcard in the combat phase. So your first idea was right. The Mountain Wargs ability triggers only when you have a shadow cards, that has so shadow-text. hope i could help

Helpful indeed, many thanks. I take it that if the Snow Warg attack went undefended the Forced damage does not apply. I am still suspicious about the interpretation of point 2 above: what you suggest is the proverbial case of dying out of success!

The redhorn Gate is a lot of fun albeit unforgiving.



#4 GrandSpleen

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:56 PM

Yep, the final push toward Caradhras is a difficult climb -- allies and heroes can be exhausted by the effort and fail in the 11th progress token… err, 11th hour.

Personally, I don't understand the wording of Carahdras and quest card 2B -- 'players cannot travel to Caradhras except through quest card effects.'  But even via quest card effects, the players don't travel to Carahdras (i.e., via the Travel phase).  It simply becomes the active location: "After placing the 11th progress token on Snowdrifts, discard any active location. Caradhras becomes the active location."  So the 'except' clause on the Caradhras card doesn't really do anything. Travel vs. 'make it the active location,' a meaningful distinction, as you can't use that moment to trigger certain card effects, such as Strength of Will (exhaust spirit character to place 2 progress tokens after traveling to a location).  And you can still use cards like Thror's Map and West Road Traveller to make Caradhras the active location without 'traveling.'

Redhorn Gate is a great scenario, just has a few quirks that seem accidental!



#5 drasen

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:11 AM

GrandSpleen said:

Yep, the final push toward Caradhras is a difficult climb -- allies and heroes can be exhausted by the effort and fail in the 11th progress token… err, 11th hour.

Personally, I don't understand the wording of Carahdras and quest card 2B -- 'players cannot travel to Caradhras except through quest card effects.'  But even via quest card effects, the players don't travel to Carahdras (i.e., via the Travel phase).  It simply becomes the active location: "After placing the 11th progress token on Snowdrifts, discard any active location. Caradhras becomes the active location."  So the 'except' clause on the Caradhras card doesn't really do anything. Travel vs. 'make it the active location,' a meaningful distinction, as you can't use that moment to trigger certain card effects, such as Strength of Will (exhaust spirit character to place 2 progress tokens after traveling to a location).  And you can still use cards like Thror's Map and West Road Traveller to make Caradhras the active location without 'traveling.'

Redhorn Gate is a great scenario, just has a few quirks that seem accidental!

The mechanics is still ambiguous to me and I am not yet fully convinced that immediately after the resolution of the quest that phase is not yet over - which means a lot in game terms for this adventure. I have so far played The Redhorn Gate solo, using a multisphere Tactics+Leadership+Spirit deck (Gimli, Theoden, Eowyn) with Daughter of Nimrodel and Miner of the Iron Hills (Lore) also included (playable from the discard stack through Stand and Fight). My success-loss ratio is about 50-50. My first loss was due to not having achieved enough victory points even after defeating the Caradhras and placing enough progression tokens on stage 3B, which forced me to continue questing. I first lost Gimli to froze and then Theodred to weather-related damage and then all was over.



#6 GrandSpleen

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:20 AM

I had these same questions when I got TRG at first (I think everyone did).  I'm a visual learner, and it helped me to you write out the steps.  There really is no room for Caradhras to become the active location outside of the quest phase.

OK, we so we know from the manual that: a) questing characters are considered 'questing' until the end of the quest phase (pg 14), and b) Quest card 2B says that Caradhras becomes the active location after placing the 11th progress token on the quest card.  So here's the sequence, starting at the end of the quest phase:

1) quest resolution -- count up threat vs. willpower.

2) place progress tokens on quest card

3) caradhras becomes active location (-1 willpower goes into effect)

4) flip quest card to 3B (0 willpower = death goes into effect)

5) begin travel phase.

 

The only way you could avoid losing characters to Caradhras's -1 WP effect is to move Step (3) into the Travel phase.  Normally, when a quest card has met it progress token requirement, you flip it immediately.  But card text trumps the rules in the game manual.  Quest card 2B specifies that Caradhras becomes the active location after it gets 11 progress tokens, so you've got to do that immediately once those conditions arise (i.e., before the quest card is flipped).  Or hey, even if you do that AFTER flipping the quest card, you still can't begin the travel phase because you have to fulfill the quest card's text before proceeding with the game.  There's really no way to suggest that Caradhras becomes the active location during the travel phase -- you'd have to delay resolution of the quest card's text, and you're not allowed to do so.



#7 drasen

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:11 AM

GrandSpleen said:

I had these same questions when I got TRG at first (I think everyone did).  I'm a visual learner, and it helped me to you write out the steps.  There really is no room for Caradhras to become the active location outside of the quest phase.

OK, we so we know from the manual that: a) questing characters are considered 'questing' until the end of the quest phase (pg 14), and b) Quest card 2B says that Caradhras becomes the active location after placing the 11th progress token on the quest card.  So here's the sequence, starting at the end of the quest phase:

1) quest resolution -- count up threat vs. willpower.

2) place progress tokens on quest card

3) caradhras becomes active location (-1 willpower goes into effect)

4) flip quest card to 3B (0 willpower = death goes into effect)

5) begin travel phase.

 

The only way you could avoid losing characters to Caradhras's -1 WP effect is to move Step (3) into the Travel phase.  Normally, when a quest card has met it progress token requirement, you flip it immediately.  But card text trumps the rules in the game manual.  Quest card 2B specifies that Caradhras becomes the active location after it gets 11 progress tokens, so you've got to do that immediately once those conditions arise (i.e., before the quest card is flipped).  Or hey, even if you do that AFTER flipping the quest card, you still can't begin the travel phase because you have to fulfill the quest card's text before proceeding with the game.  There's really no way to suggest that Caradhras becomes the active location during the travel phase -- you'd have to delay resolution of the quest card's text, and you're not allowed to do so.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience on this adventure, and for the detailed sequence of events. If anything that occurs in the game has to occur within one of the seven phases, then your interpretation is almost certainly correct. I wonder whether that was the intention of the designer or an unintended collateral result.

Another question on TRG: Freezing Cold states that the "attached hero gets -2 will and cannot commit to a quest". What happens if Freezing Cold is attached to a hero that is actually committed to the quest at the time the card is revealed? The text says that the hero cannot commit to a quest, but the point is that he/she is already committed, so would it be in the spirit of the card to resolve the quest counting the willpower of that hero or do you think that it should rather be left out of the count?

 



#8 GrandSpleen

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:38 AM

Resolve the quest normally.  'Commit to the quest' refers to the actual act of committing.  If the character is already committed, the card won't remove them from the quest unless it says so (like Black Forest Bats).



#9 drasen

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:34 PM

GrandSpleen said:

Resolve the quest normally.  'Commit to the quest' refers to the actual act of committing.  If the character is already committed, the card won't remove them from the quest unless it says so (like Black Forest Bats).

Thanks again.






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