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Unintended Consequences of New Rules (Navis Primer and Stars of Inequity)


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#1 HappyDaze

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:26 AM

Between Navis Primer (NP) and Stars of Inequity (SoI), we now have more strict numbers set aside for travel times. Many of the Warp routes set in NP are considerably longer than what has been set before. SoI also gives us the time to travel into and out of a system, ranging from a few weeks to over two months.

Consider a fairly straightforward trip (by the standards fo travel within the Koronus Expanse) of Footfall to Port Wander. The time in Warp is only set for 5 days, but each system will typically have 2 weeks of travel time to/from the jump point. So it's about a month for this short leg.

For other trips - like Footfall to Damaris, we;re looking at 200 days in the warp and likely six weeks in transit (2 leaving Footfall and 4 approaching Damaris). That's a crazy amount of time and likely terribly risky for any ship lacking an Arboretum and/or Extended Supply Vaults.

In fact, using Table 2-2  in NP for random Warp travel times, we find that the average length of Warp travel is 65 days. Assuming that travel will take place from Primary Biosphere to Primary Biosphere (a fairly common occurance) we can add two more months. So we now have a one-way trip that averages 3 months, and if the ship just turns around and heads back without delay it can just barely get back before it starts straining its 6 month of supplies. All of that assumes nothing goes wrong… Making every trip a very risky gamble on supplies.

I'd argue that if these numbers are going to be used, the base endurance of a voidship needs to be far more than 6 months. We hear about ships that can exist without resupply for years at a time, but with the current systems available to us, the maximum possible is 2 years - barely meeting the mark and leaving no room to extend the upper end.


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#2 TiLT

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:46 AM

Many of those trips will be between Footfall and another system, and only rarely will you need to travel into the very depths of it. My understanding is that it doesn't take very long to get to Footfall from the Warp since it's not in a typical system, but there's nothing concrete written about it that I'm aware of. 

You're not typically going to run into the very long travel times unless you head to random, unexplored systems (which should be dangerous anyway) or some of the more remote, known systems. With the Navis Primer rules for Warp travel, the Navigator will also be able to determine (if he's reasonably good at his job) the estimated duration of the trip before they transition into the Warp, giving the captain a chance to abort before risking his crew on an extended trip. 

If nothing else, these new rules will really hammer home for the players the idea that the remote systems in the Koronus Expanse are remote. You don't go there casually. The longest of these trips could force the players to either make sure they know of a place to resupply in the general area they're heading, expand the supplies they have to handle more than a 6-month trip, or reduce the amount of supplies given to the crew. They could even be creative and try heading off with less than a full complement of crew so that supplies will last longer. 



#3 HappyDaze

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:27 AM

I treated Footfall as being in the Outer Reaches of its system for travel times.

As for knowing there's a place to resupply nearby when going to an unexplored system, that's not a real possibility. Until you get there, you can't really know what's nearby in the Warp (real space distances mean nothing - look at Footfall to Damaris which are close on the map but take about 6 months in the Warp to travel between). I do realize that you make the estimate of a route before setting off, but you can't know what the return time will be since it's different from the previous trip according to NP and (AFAICT) you have to plot it from the origin point of that leg.

I'm wondering if it's possible to fill Cargo and Passenger components with extra supplies in a manner similar to what you get from Extended Supply Vaults. It should certainly be less than what ESV gets you, perhaps an extra month per 25 points of Trade contribution the component would normally provide? Of course when used this way the Component won't grant it's usual bonuses (but any penalties still apply). For the cargo holds this might be especially useful when heading out as you then empty space to fill with booty at your destination.

Packed to the brim with supplies, this might increase the time out as follows:

Cargo Hold and Lighter Bay: 2 months of supplies

Compartmentalised Cargo Hold: 4 months of supplies

Main Cargo Hold: 5 months of supplies

Shadowblind Bays: 2 months of supplies

Luxury Passenger Quarters: 4 months of supplies (the supplies usually reserved for the rich folks can be spread out a long way, but that penalty to Morale sticks around because the crew can never get enough of this stuff)

 


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#4 lurkeroutthere

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:08 PM

Honestly, all the problems you describe seem like good things. If your heading out into the back end of the the expanse you pack as much supplies as your can physically get into your holds and you plan accordingly. You hope and look eagerly for every possible opportunity you could to replenish and hope for the best. Some losses are to be expected.



#5 HappyDaze

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 07:47 PM

I think that what I have the most problem with is the time required to move from a jump point to an in-system location. It's crossing genres a bit, but imagine if in Star Wars we heard "The Death Star has entered the Yavin system and will be in firing position in four weeks." Really messes with any sense of urgency.

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#6 Asajev

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:11 PM

I feel this is a double edge point. In some ways yes I feel it could leave you with that sense of well lets wait a month till the enemy fleet gets here. The other point I can see is build of the tension by reports of different combats that the enemys are comitting across the star system. If the case comes that the enemy comes to a system with no system monitors then the time it takes to arrive at the colony could potentially be time for a rescue operation to be mounted. I don't know I see the nerrative potential. Will look into it as soon as i get my copy of the SoI later this week.



#7 Darkheyr

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:55 PM

Hold on. Does NP or SoI suggest that if you pass the Stations of Passage, you actually have to spend days and weeks at sublight to crawl across the system before being able to jump again?

I mean, if you dont want to get into the system, why not just a quick stop for orientation, and then back to the warp?



#8 TiLT

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:26 PM

Darkheyr said:

Hold on. Does NP or SoI suggest that if you pass the Stations of Passage, you actually have to spend days and weeks at sublight to crawl across the system before being able to jump again?

I mean, if you dont want to get into the system, why not just a quick stop for orientation, and then back to the warp?

No, AFAIK it doesn't. If you're using a system as a short stop between jumps, there's no need to do any travel. Stars of Inequity talks about the time it takes to travel within a system, either between zones or between planets, and this can stretch into weeks in some cases. As long as your translation from the Warp into realspace was successful and on target, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to jump again almost immediately. It's a different matter if you're off-target and end up somewhere within the system, but that's rare anyway. 



#9 HappyDaze

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:45 AM

Travel within a system pretty much always takes weeks, but hopping into a system and then hopping out does not.

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#10 Kiton

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:29 PM

HappyDaze said:

I think that what I have the most problem with is the time required to move from a jump point to an in-system location. It's crossing genres a bit, but imagine if in Star Wars we heard "The Death Star has entered the Yavin system and will be in firing position in four weeks." Really messes with any sense of urgency.

 

That would actually kind of have been amazing if used right, as it could have provided a sense of scale. We all understand quite well what a few hours involves, and know that most mechanized forces on the planet, if prepped, can be anywhere else in the world in less than a full day.

Four weeks would sound like ample prep-time to amass a fleet, but if played with properly could also have driven home an important lesson:  Space *IS BLOODY HUGE*

Could've made for some very nervous, desperate people when it came to "soon having to defend that world"



#11 Telemicus

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 03:58 AM

I'm not sure that these are unintended consequences at all.

RT seems to push an Age of Sail style of travel and conduct, with big ships going out to points unknown in search of fame and fortune, but in 40k. This gives you a mix of dangerously thin logisitical lines and a strong feeling of isolation, even with a crew in the tens of thousands.



#12 Radwraith

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:42 AM

I think the times are somewhat overrated. Sure, on some trips the warp transit times can be extreme but on stable paths they are only a matter of days. Further; The OP is wrong about a "standard" trip from Biosphere to biosphere. A standard transit would involve a stable warp route (Average transit time approx. 21 days) plus in system transit time from each leg adds about a month (Not two!). This yields a total transit time of about a month and a half which doesn't even begin to seriosly impact ship's stores. Going off into unexplored regions can be more difficult (As it should be!) but a good navigator can offset this a great deal (As little as 1/4 of the original calculated transit time!). The new system is meant to make the Navigator an Invaluable member of the Rogue Trader's crew. I think it does that!sonreir



#13 DigitalRedneck

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:19 AM

Radwraith said:

I think the times are somewhat overrated. Sure, on some trips the warp transit times can be extreme but on stable paths they are only a matter of days. Further; The OP is wrong about a "standard" trip from Biosphere to biosphere. A standard transit would involve a stable warp route (Average transit time approx. 21 days) plus in system transit time from each leg adds about a month (Not two!). This yields a total transit time of about a month and a half which doesn't even begin to seriosly impact ship's stores. Going off into unexplored regions can be more difficult (As it should be!) but a good navigator can offset this a great deal (As little as 1/4 of the original calculated transit time!). The new system is meant to make the Navigator an Invaluable member of the Rogue Trader's crew. I think it does that!sonreir

I like the new rules for all the reasons stated above. It really drives home just how tough exploring uncharted space is, and makes the Nav much more valuable and interesting. I also agree that not only does the new rules indicate that the travel time can be shortened by a skilled Nav but they also imply  routine routes which are well mapped / known to the nav don't even require any rolls and could be much shorter than standard. 

 



#14 HappyDaze

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 01:03 PM

Radwraith said:

I think the times are somewhat overrated. Sure, on some trips the warp transit times can be extreme but on stable paths they are only a matter of days. Further; The OP is wrong about a "standard" trip from Biosphere to biosphere. A standard transit would involve a stable warp route (Average transit time approx. 21 days) plus in system transit time from each leg adds about a month (Not two!). This yields a total transit time of about a month and a half which doesn't even begin to seriosly impact ship's stores. Going off into unexplored regions can be more difficult (As it should be!) but a good navigator can offset this a great deal (As little as 1/4 of the original calculated transit time!). The new system is meant to make the Navigator an Invaluable member of the Rogue Trader's crew. I think it does that!sonreir

You have to cross the Outer Reaches and then at least some of the Primary Biosphere. That's two zones, so four weeks if you pass all the way through. Assuming you have to go to the midpoint of the Primary Biosphere (because we are going for averages), that's three weeks. I'd propose that I may have highballed it by a week for an average trip and you've likewise lowballed it by the same. This brings the average trip - using your times for Warp travel - to two months.


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#15 HappyDaze

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 01:05 PM

DigitalRedneck said:

Radwraith said:

 

I think the times are somewhat overrated. Sure, on some trips the warp transit times can be extreme but on stable paths they are only a matter of days. Further; The OP is wrong about a "standard" trip from Biosphere to biosphere. A standard transit would involve a stable warp route (Average transit time approx. 21 days) plus in system transit time from each leg adds about a month (Not two!). This yields a total transit time of about a month and a half which doesn't even begin to seriosly impact ship's stores. Going off into unexplored regions can be more difficult (As it should be!) but a good navigator can offset this a great deal (As little as 1/4 of the original calculated transit time!). The new system is meant to make the Navigator an Invaluable member of the Rogue Trader's crew. I think it does that!sonreir

 

 

I like the new rules for all the reasons stated above. It really drives home just how tough exploring uncharted space is, and makes the Nav much more valuable and interesting. I also agree that not only does the new rules indicate that the travel time can be shortened by a skilled Nav but they also imply  routine routes which are well mapped / known to the nav don't even require any rolls and could be much shorter than standard. 

 

I wish there were a relatively safe way for a skilled Navigator to attempt to jump in-system to reduce in-system flight times.


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#16 Trader Austin

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:54 PM

more established routes also allow you a fairly good idea of how far a place is in the warp. as stated before footfall to damaris is 150 days. but footfall to grace is 90 and grace to damaris is 40. 130 days. that cuts the time from footfall to damaris by 20 days. return trip is even more. demaris to footfall is 200 days. demaris-grace-footfall is 85. this is unaltered times, add in components that lower warp time, good navagators, and compoents that extend time in space. travel can be dangerous but not impossible or especially dangerous. 

right now my group has a orion clipper. between the milo warp engine, runecaster and best starcharts. warp travel is fast(1/4-10 days.) and a base speed of 10 with grav sails, modified sprint trader drive, and a energy conversion matrix we squeeze 18 out of it. makes for short trips in and out of system.

yes this is a highly specialized ship but between planning, components, and navagation, running low on supplies souldn't be too hard to avoid.



#17 HappyDaze

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 06:10 PM

The speed of a ship does not alter the time required to cross the system. Faster ships don't help here as all the excess speed is lost outside of a tactical encounter. I'm not saying that this makes perfect sense, but that's what SoI says about it.

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#18 Routa-maa

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:44 PM

HappyDaze said:

I wish there were a relatively safe way for a skilled Navigator to attempt to jump in-system to reduce in-system flight times.

"What and risk the whole star system with possible warp inducend madness and contamination, not to mention the Ship! Are you mad."

*Rubs hands together*

"If you like I can point few "reliable" Ork Weirboys who might just possibly do the trick, for a price off course" burla

 

So if I understand this all correctly, as I don't have SoI yet, solar system can be compartmentalised to innersphere, biosphere; where life is possible and outersphere.

And there is RAW that traveling through, one forementioned, spheres takes about week. So if planet to where I'm traveling is in biosphere closest to innersphere, it would take me 2 weeks. But If said planet is in the outer reach of biosphere it would only take me week(+few possible days).

But it might be possible to make these travel times shorter/longer if said spheres contain fewer/more planets. Not included off course the gravity tides, asteroid belts and other stuff that might affect the travel. As for faster ship reducing time needed to travel cross system, I don't touch that subject until I have SoI in my calloused hands.

Yes or No will do.


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#19 TiLT

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 10:35 PM

Routa-maa said:

So if I understand this all correctly, as I don't have SoI yet, solar system can be compartmentalised to innersphere, biosphere; where life is possible and outersphere.

And there is RAW that traveling through, one forementioned, spheres takes about week. So if planet to where I'm traveling is in biosphere closest to innersphere, it would take me 2 weeks. But If said planet is in the outer reach of biosphere it would only take me week(+few possible days).

But it might be possible to make these travel times shorter/longer if said spheres contain fewer/more planets. Not included off course the gravity tides, asteroid belts and other stuff that might affect the travel. As for faster ship reducing time needed to travel cross system, I don't touch that subject until I have SoI in my calloused hands.

Yes or No will do.

For a "yes" or "no" to do, you'd need to ask a simpler question. :P

SoI gives systems three zones: Inner Cauldron, Primary Biosphere, and Outer Reaches. Each one can be Weak, Normal, or Dominant. The rule of thumb is that traveling from the inner to the outer edge (or vice-versa) of a Normal zone takes 2 weeks. A Dominant Zone takes roughly 3 weeks. A Weak zone roughly 1 week. If you're planning to visit a planet in the middle of the Primary Biosphere of a typical system, you should expect to spend about 3 weeks in transit from the edge of the system to the planet itself. Ships can theoretically travel faster, but it puts so much strain on the engines that it's better not to. 

The amount of planets in the system doesn't matter, only the size of the zones. A system could have Dominant zones with nothing in them, for example. Gravity Tides, Asteroid Belts and similar items may have an impact if you have to avoid them. 



#20 Routa-maa

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 11:50 PM

TiLT said:

For a "yes" or "no" to do, you'd need to ask a simpler question. :P

SoI gives systems three zones: Inner Cauldron, Primary Biosphere, and Outer Reaches. Each one can be Weak, Normal, or Dominant. The rule of thumb is that traveling from the inner to the outer edge (or vice-versa) of a Normal zone takes 2 weeks. A Dominant Zone takes roughly 3 weeks. A Weak zone roughly 1 week. If you're planning to visit a planet in the middle of the Primary Biosphere of a typical system, you should expect to spend about 3 weeks in transit from the edge of the system to the planet itself. Ships can theoretically travel faster, but it puts so much strain on the engines that it's better not to. 

The amount of planets in the system doesn't matter, only the size of the zones. A system could have Dominant zones with nothing in them, for example. Gravity Tides, Asteroid Belts and similar items may have an impact if you have to avoid them. 

For your answer I would say that it's one of those Yes, because it gave me all the information I needed and was asking. No less, no more.

So let's say Outer reach is dominant (travel time 3 weeks), bioshere is weak (1 week), and Inner cauldron is normal (2 weeks), no additional asteroid belts or gravity tides to slow ships. Total travel time for mass conveyor arriving from differend solar system would be 6 weeks to reach inner cauldron mining planet that produces and refines ceramite and another 6 weeks for travel out of the said system. +- time needed to load, refuel and possible "recruiting".

On the other hand another mass conveyor just traveling to gas giant, situated in outer reach inner edge, takes just 3 weeks to get it's goods.

I still would possibly reduce said travel time regarding the placing of target planet in said zone. If it sits on the outer edge it would be greatly reduced but if it's middle or near inner edge it might be less reduced or full travel time to reach it.


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