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Surges uses if attack misses.


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#1 ilulome

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:55 AM

I been wondering if players be able to use surges when an attack misses,  either by rolling a X or not rolling enough range. Can surges still be use for other abilities that are no meant to change the outcome of the attack, like recovering fatigue?



#2 Steve-O

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 12:36 PM

That's a bit of a murky question.

If the attack missed because an X was rolled on the blue die, the rules explicitly state that all other dice results are ignored.

If the attack missed for some other reason, however, the same is not explicitly stated.  In fact, I believe FFG has officially ruled in at least one case that a surge could be spent for an auxilliary effect if the attack missed to due to range (applying Stun to a different monster via the shield.)

 

Personally, I'm inclined to say a miss is a miss and all results are ignored, but that would appear to be a house rule.



#3 Rico

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:26 AM

Think of Surges as bonus stuff your hero can do, regardless of the range/damage outcome. Unless you roll an X you can use your surges for whatever your character allows surges to be used for. If you come up short in range and your surge allows additional range you MAY choose to use your surge to extend your range so you can deal damage OR you could use it for a fatigue point which allows you to move that one last space to escape off the board… The choice is yours.  The rules are pretty cut and dry - nothing states that surges (although rolled in the combat phase) have to pertain to the outcome of that combat.

 

Spiritspeaker skill "Vigor" is a good example: For every Surge rolled each hero recovers 1 Stamina. Let's say you're in act two and your Spiritspeaker has this ability and also carries the Lightning Strike rune. The situation is dire. Your fellow heroes have blown all of their Stamina points on an attempt to do some major damage, but the dice didn't roll their way (you know the deal). No rest action was used so it's gonna be two turns before your group has any chance of dealing decent damage. But, wait! On your attack you roll 3 Surges! But your range is short. No worries, just give everyone 3 Stamina back and it's almost as good as that lost rest action.

 

The COMBAT rules are as follows:

2. ROLL DICE: If an X is rolled on the blue attack die, the attack is considered a miss and all other results are ignored. 

4. SPEND SURGES: If there are any surge results obtained during the attack roll, the attacking player may spend these surges on different abilities.  



#4 ilulome

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:26 PM

Thanks guys for the reply.   I got a better understanding on how the surge work when the attack misses. I'll talk it over with my friend and mention what you guys posted.  That way i'll make sure to come up with a rule that every finds satisfactory.   Thanks, your input was really helpfull.



#5 thefuturembrace

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:14 PM

One thing worth mentioning is that the rules state (p.15) that conditions can't be applied unless the attack does at least one damage. We are just talkin' about real conditions here; stun/poison/immobilize/disease/burn type of dudes. It doesn't say anything about other effects so I have to assume it is chill to perform those unless you X'd. Personally I would not allow effects to a target if the range requirement wasn't meant but that's just me. The mentioned shield stun thing would be an exception. Self/other effects yes, effects to target no.



#6 Rico

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 10:22 AM

Perhaps FFG should have made a separate surge die with its own phase in the turn sequence. As it stands, the only time to get surges is when rolling dice that contain them and that is the combat phase. But the surge is not limited to combat results as evidenced by the ability to convert one into a MP. I can see why you would house rule that surges don't count unless you are in range and do damage, but it is not how surges are used at all. It's unfortunate that FFG combined this functionality with combat as most players will link the surge as a combat-only use. I'm sure we will see some more variety in surge abilities as expansions come out and with the Quest Vault which would make its utility more accepted.



#7 Steve-O

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:34 AM

Rico said:

As it stands, the only time to get surges is when rolling dice that contain them and that is the combat phase. But the surge is not limited to combat results as evidenced by the ability to convert one into a MP. I can see why you would house rule that surges don't count unless you are in range and do damage, but it is not how surges are used at all.

I prefer to think of Surges as something equivalent to an "adrenaline rush" obtained by succeeding in a life-or-death situation, like combat.  There are plenty of stories about people (both fictional and real) who experience an exhilerating rush at times like this.

So, when you successfully hit an enemy in combat, you get a rush.  Sometimes that rush is enough to motivate some extra "bonus," be it twisting your sword in the wound for a little extra damage, or recovering some fatigue as you become exhilerated by the sound thwomping you just gave your target, or some other effect of opportunity.  Obviously, some Surge effects rely on there being a secondary target nearby to use it on, so that's just luck of draw whether or not someone is there to be affected.

But, if you miss, you don't get that rush of adrenaline.  You get a little disappointed, or maybe even frustrated at having missed, and you don't see that window for the extra "bonus."

In this way, the effect itself may not be related to the attack you made, but the psychological and physiological (and possibly magical) spur that motivated you to that bonus effect was directly tied to your being successful in battle.  That's just my theory, anyway.  As I've said before, I prefer to invent logic that explains the rules rather than worry about the rules not being logical.



#8 Rico

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:44 AM

 

I hear what you're saying Steve-O, and I can appreciate the logic behind your rationale. But, the rules only restrict surge use if X is rolled. With the Quest Vault I expect we will see some unique uses for surges.  I have a quest design that use them as a type of counter where upon N surges tallied a new monster group is introduced to the map. I like your take on surges used as a combat mechanic, but they have more utility than just damage and fatigue adjustments.

 



#9 Ispher

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 12:23 PM

Rico said:

Spiritspeaker skill "Vigor" is a good example: For every Surge rolled each hero recovers 1 Stamina. Let's say you're in act two and your Spiritspeaker has this ability and also carries the Lightning Strike rune. The situation is dire. Your fellow heroes have blown all of their Stamina points on an attempt to do some major damage, but the dice didn't roll their way (you know the deal). No rest action was used so it's gonna be two turns before your group has any chance of dealing decent damage. But, wait! On your attack you roll 3 Surges! But your range is short. No worries, just give everyone 3 Stamina back and it's almost as good as that lost rest action.

Unfortunately for the Spiritspeakers, Vigor does not work this way. To work in the way you describe, Vigor would have to read:

Each of your attacks gain:

[surge] : Each hero recovers 1 fatigue

[surge] : Each hero recovers 1 fatigue

[surge] : Each hero recovers 1 fatigue

It is only written once however, so the Spiritspeaker can only make heroes recover one fatigue per attack, even with 3 surges rolled.

Other than that, I like your creative ideas for the use of surges.



#10 Rico

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 01:44 PM

Noted. Regardless, the surge counts even if out of range. I was trying to find a non-combat skill to demonstrate (I have yet to play a Spiritspeaker).  On a side note - that seems pretty weak for a 3 XP skill. I like my interpretation better, heh.






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