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SAM and other AA


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#1 v1ggo

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:23 AM

The question is: What do you GM and players out there use for AA guns and SAM launchers? 

Mostly intrested in handheld options.

 

/V



#2 KommissarK

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:26 AM

I've always held that the hydra is the primary AA weapon of the setting. 

Honestly, SAMs seem a bit out there for the fluff. I guess there are AA missiles on some of the aircraft in setting, but you rarely see guided munitions on the individual guardsmen level.



#3 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:15 AM

The current 40k rulebook introduced Flakk missiles as an additional type of ammunition for Imperial missile launchers. They're not standard issue - they're an additional option listed in both Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Codex: Dark Angels (the only new codices released since the new rulebook) - but that still opens the possibility of requisitioning them as rare munitions.

Rules-wise, they're Str 7, AP4, are single-shot and have the Skyfire special rule (so they hit aircraft and skimmers without penalty, but only hit ground targets on 6s). In Only War terms, I'd suggest 2d10+10 X, Pen 6, with a -30 penalty to hit anything that isn't a skimmer or aircraft, and ignoring all penalties for firing at aircraft (whatever those might be - there being no rules for aircraft in the Only War rulebook, and my copy of Into the Storm being currently in storage like 99% of my RPG books). I'd list them as having an Availability of Rare.


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#4 HappyDaze

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:27 AM

We just have to hope that most aircraft have fairly thin armour values. If you're unlucky enough to be on the painful end of a strafing gun-cutter (RT: ItS), that missile is really not going to cut it.


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#5 Musclewizard

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:46 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

In Only War terms, I'd suggest 2d10+10 X, Pen 6, with a -30 penalty to hit anything that isn't a skimmer or aircraft, and ignoring all penalties for firing at aircraft

They could probably ignore the penalties produced by evasive maneuvers and maybe even make it harder to Jink (or whatever the aircraft equivalent would be) by -30 or so.



#6 HappyDaze

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:12 PM

Ignoring the penalties from the aircraft's speed is a good idea, but it should not ignore evasive maneuvers since this is a cinematic setting and dodging missiles is very in genre.

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#7 Tygre

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:12 PM

In Deathwatch they have the armourbane missile launcher for use against ground vehicles.  The launcher basically gives +20 to hit ground based targets and -20 to hit air based targets.  It states that it can be used to do so but was not designed for it.  It uses hunter killer missiles (Krak with guidance)

So a missile launcher designed for AA will be +20 to hit air targets -20 to hit ground targets.  It would also have to use hunter killer missiles.

 

As a side note man portable AA in reality is only really useful against low and slow aircraft like helicopters.  It would not likely hit fighters and bombers unless they caught them on takeoff or touchdown or in skimmer mode burla



#8 Routa-maa

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:55 PM

Hopefully they include sometime in the future Hydra Flakk tank, Manticore missile tank, Medusa siege tank, Bombard cannon tank, Griffon heavy mortar, Salamander Command/Scout tank, Preator Armored Assault Launcher, Crassus armored assault transport, Tauros Rapid/Venator etc etc reir I love vehicles of Imperial Guard.

But would be nice to get AA/SAM weapons although there isn't yet aircrafts. Long Barreled Autocannon, SAM missile upgrades/unusual ammunition etc etc. but it might be that most of those weapons might be too big for lugging around in normal sense as most might have to have somekind of towing vehicle to get it around.

Here's one example that might be similar to autocannon on AA mount in GrimDark

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZU-23-2

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#9 Kiton

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:51 AM

The rules for air vehicles would need some redoing.

-All Shooting From flyers or spacecraft in aerial combat suffers a -20 to BS tests. This is meant to be mitigated by full-auto's +20, as ridiculous-RoF on unguided weapons is the expected standard rather than something special.

-The speed penalty is actually just that firing at flyers in the air does not give their size as a bonus, despite most of them being enormous or worse.

 

With the base stat values in Only War, if we kept the flyer rules as-is, the average pilot would have a 5% chance of striking targets when using full-auto like he's supposed to. Instead, I'll suggest that flying vehicles and spacecraft drop this to -10, and ignore the rate of fire bonus or penalties. We can assume that heavy single shot weapons at least have decent targeting, and that high rates of fire are doing their job.

Thus, a vehicle's Lascannon now fires at -10 instead of -30 like in Rogue Trader and can thus actually hit something on occasion, Semi-auto stays at -10 in either case, and Full-Auto is at -10 instead of 0, but would otherwise be the new -30 in Only War.

 

For the Flak missiles, I'd suggest upping the Pen to 10 and do skyfire as the following:

Skyfire: Weapons with this quality are designed to fire at high-velocity aerial targets. Against ground targets the weapon cannot fire without an Aim action, with a -10 or -0 penalty from half or full-aim respectively. Against aerial targets, the weapon fires normally and gains an additional +10 to hit if the target finished its previous turn closer to the weapon's wielder than it began.



#10 Robomummy

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:24 PM

KommissarK said:

I've always held that the hydra is the primary AA weapon of the setting. 

Honestly, SAMs seem a bit out there for the fluff. I guess there are AA missiles on some of the aircraft in setting, but you rarely see guided munitions on the individual guardsmen level.

this is exactly what the manticores are. they are basically 4 guided SAMs mounted on a chimera chasis. THe characters in my game have used one and I made rules for it.

The manticore has four missiles (use hunter-killer missile profile for damage). operating and firing it requires a Hard (-20) tech-use test. WHen fired the players must make a challenging (+0) tech use test to guide the missile. since the players are basically guiding the missile firing the weapon does not require a ballistic skill test.

it is a little rough until there are rules for an actual manticore but it works for now.


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#11 HappyDaze

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:55 PM

Robomummy said:

KommissarK said:

 

I've always held that the hydra is the primary AA weapon of the setting. 

Honestly, SAMs seem a bit out there for the fluff. I guess there are AA missiles on some of the aircraft in setting, but you rarely see guided munitions on the individual guardsmen level.

 

 

this is exactly what the manticores are. they are basically 4 guided SAMs mounted on a chimera chasis. THe characters in my game have used one and I made rules for it.

The manticore has four missiles (use hunter-killer missile profile for damage). operating and firing it requires a Hard (-20) tech-use test. WHen fired the players must make a challenging (+0) tech use test to guide the missile. since the players are basically guiding the missile firing the weapon does not require a ballistic skill test.

it is a little rough until there are rules for an actual manticore but it works for now.

The Manticore is multirole, but you are correct that some are used as ADA.

I find it amusing that the Manticore crew entry on Lexicanum lists a loader. I doubt that this is for the heavy bolter as no such position exists on other Chimera-based vehicles with heavy bolters, but the idea of someone hefting those missiles into position is simply ridiculous without using a power lifter on a Sentinel.


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#12 Robomummy

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:41 PM

HappyDaze said:

Robomummy said:

 

KommissarK said:

 

I've always held that the hydra is the primary AA weapon of the setting. 

Honestly, SAMs seem a bit out there for the fluff. I guess there are AA missiles on some of the aircraft in setting, but you rarely see guided munitions on the individual guardsmen level.

 

 

this is exactly what the manticores are. they are basically 4 guided SAMs mounted on a chimera chasis. THe characters in my game have used one and I made rules for it.

The manticore has four missiles (use hunter-killer missile profile for damage). operating and firing it requires a Hard (-20) tech-use test. WHen fired the players must make a challenging (+0) tech use test to guide the missile. since the players are basically guiding the missile firing the weapon does not require a ballistic skill test.

it is a little rough until there are rules for an actual manticore but it works for now.

 

 

The Manticore is multirole, but you are correct that some are used as ADA.

I find it amusing that the Manticore crew entry on Lexicanum lists a loader. I doubt that this is for the heavy bolter as no such position exists on other Chimera-based vehicles with heavy bolters, but the idea of someone hefting those missiles into position is simply ridiculous without using a power lifter on a Sentinel.

The loader doesnt necessarily need to be a guardsmen, a servitor could  easily do this or a lifter sentinel to hold it in place while a guardsmen attaches the missile. Just remember that the missiles are mounted externally. Personally I would much prefer a hydra so the players can fire without taking a few minutes to reload every few shots but the manticores are good for more heavily armed targets while hydras are for lightly armored fliers.


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#13 Angel of Death

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 06:13 AM

What about using Autocannons as AA guns?

and of course in a pinch the there is always a Mad Minute by every available weapon.


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#14 Angel of Death

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 06:14 AM

What about using Autocannons as AA guns?

and of course in a pinch the there is always a Mad Minute by every available weapon.


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#15 Kiton

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 07:07 AM

So long as you can hit, 3d10+8 Pen 6 starts doing damage to AP21 if you roll an 8 or higher, causing 9.5 integrity loss per hit with average rolls. A maximum damage result would chop 23 integrity off that aquila. The weapon is unlikely to even scratch a gun-cutter however, though at maximum results it could possibly do 8.

Fired on Semi-Auto, Twin-Linked Autocannons would pose a significant threat to interceptors and light landing craft. A pair would prove quite devastating.



#16 Robomummy

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:14 AM

Angel of Death said:

What about using Autocannons as AA guns?

and of course in a pinch the there is always a Mad Minute by every available weapon.

a Hydra is basically four autocannons with an AA tracking system.


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#17 Face Eater

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 01:52 AM

Many heavy weapons can be used as ad-hoc anti-aircraft weapons but the likely hood of hitting is usually quite low. The guards dedicated AA weapons are numerous.

Sabre Platforms with twin linked auto-cannons (or heavy bolters, lascannon, or quad mounted heavy stubbers) are basically the lightest, the requivalent of that weapon that Routa-maa linked.

http://wh40k.lexican...rm#.UQ-4SR0vRSo

Then you have the Icarus Lascannon and Quad-guns (quad mounted auto-cannon very much like the hydra) which are usually part or more permanent fortifications such as teh Aegis defence line and Bastion. These have more sophisticated targetting systems.

Then you have mobile AA. The Hyrdra flak tanks with it's quad long-barrled autocannon and advanced targetting, and the Manticore when armed with heat seeking Sky Eagle rockets.

http://wh40k.lexican...nk#.UQ-7vR0vRSo

http://wh40k.lexican...k)#.UQ-6yR0vRSo

Both the Hydra Flak cannons and Manticore rocket launchers are also found as towed blased weapon system plaforms.

The largest Imperial Guard standard anti-air craft weapon is in the super heavy Praetor armoured assault launcher using anti-air missiles:

http://wh40k.lexican...er#.UQ-8jR0vRSo

 



#18 Kasatka

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:09 AM

I think most of the previous post has summed it up but just to reiterate that the Hydra mounts a pair of long-barrelled twin-linked autocannon. In tabletop terms it increases the range and gives them a re-roll. It alos makes it one of the most brutal anti-infantry weapons mounted on an imperial vehicle until the Punisher canon for the leman russ was brought out.

Similarly the Manticore is a multi-role missile launcher, but going on the size of the missiles and their high strenght and Ap in the tabletop i would use stats far better than that of the hunter-killer missiles (which are just suped-up krak missiles with guidance systems).


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#19 Face Eater

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:31 PM

I just remembered that in an Epic 40K ofshoot called Aeronautica they models for a heavy AA gun. Very much like most WWII AAA.

I guess that's about it. You make up stats for most of it but I can't be bothered doing it, not knowing what you actually need it for. Some-one mentioned Flak missiles for missile launchers as your man portable option.

The only other thing I can think of saying is that it's a big galaxy, plenty of stuff out there. Locally made vehicles with any of the AA weapon combos, rarely used Chimera, Leman Russ or any other IG vehicle based AA weapon platform and I'm sure multi-multilasers would work fine, maybe in fixed emplacements or on mechanicus vehicles.






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