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Dogfights-problem with overlapping bases and suggested solution


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#1 DrTesla

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:28 AM

Hi all, I have a problem with one specific rule concerning overlapping bases that I would like to illustrate:

Consider a dogfight, one fighter tailing the other. One Pilot has a higher pilot akill than the other. Tailing should be good, staying close behind the enemy in a dogfight is good right?

Lets start with the higher skill pilot tailing  the lower skill pilot. 

Overlapping can only occur if both maneuvers end up in the same space. The lower skill pilot advances first, then the tailing higher skill pilot flys into him, looses the action and cannot shoot him. So far so good.

Now lets look at the lower skill pilot tailing the higher skill pilot. Now two scenarios are possible in which overlapping can occur.

a) The maneuvers of both pilots have overpapping endpoints (like above) -> This would occur if the tailing pilot chose a too far going maneuver :

 

Since the lower skill pilot moves first he will "overtake" the tailed pilot, who will move after him and fly right into the previously tailing pilot. Since the rules state that he is moved back until touching, the previously tailed pilot with the higher skill is now actually behind the previously tailing pilot. Nice, so the higher pilot skill was worth its price (although the action is lost and he cannot shoot at the touched lower skill pilot.)

The problem comes with possibitily b) The tailing pilots (lower skill!) maneuver overlaps with the tailed higher skill pilots starting position.

First the tailing pilot moves and flying into his target, is moved back, loses the action. Now the tailed higher skill pilot flys on. Since the rules states that if the bases are no longer touching, ships can again fire at each other, the tailing (lower skill) pilot can actually take a shot now (assuming the targer is in his firing arc). The action is lost, but the opportunity to fire is still there!

In short: While the higher skill pilot chasing the lower skill pilot ends up having no action and no shot, the lower skill pilot chasing the high skill pilot looses the action but gets a shot! So the lower skill pilot has the clear advantage here!

In order to remedy this I would like to suggest to omit the rule saying that ones the bases no longer touch, ships can fire at each other. In that case our lower skill pilot would loose its action but although the tailied high skill pilot has moved on (bases no longer touching), he would loose the shot, just as the high skill pilot would. It would be fair again.

Please let me know what you think. I am going to try this with a friend and see how it goes.

 


#2 dvang

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:20 AM

Eh, it works fine the way it is in the rules. The more skilled pilot needs to maneuver better. You know, maybe pull a K-turn or something. If the skilled pilot runs into another ship, simply put he was outmaneuvered.



#3 DrTesla

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:21 AM

When hunting a highly skilled x-wing he cant pull tight turns. I found that if I keep putting my academy ties in front of him, the only option left for him is the 180° turn.otherwise he cant get out.



#4 ArcticSnake

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:56 AM

Take note that you are allowed to go through enemy ships, so unless you have TIEs at the 3 turn, 3 bank and 2 turn endpoints as well then I would agree that the x-wing has no way out.


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#5 Grimwalker

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:44 AM

Pro Tip: if you are chasing another ship, don't choose a maneuver that overlaps your opponent's base.



#6 DoubleNot7

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:08 AM

"First the tailing pilot moves and flying into his target, is moved back, loses the action. Now the tailed higher skill pilot flys on. Since the rules states that if the bases are no longer touching, ships can again fire at each other, the tailing (lower skill) pilot can actually take a shot now (assuming the targer is in his firing arc). The action is lost, but the opportunity to fire is still there!

In short: While the higher skill pilot chasing the lower skill pilot ends up having no action and no shot, the lower skill pilot chasing the high skill pilot looses the action but gets a shot! So the lower skill pilot has the clear advantage here!"

 

Your premnise here is 100% wrong.  All movement is resolved before shooting.  So either both ships will be touching or overlapping and neither will have a shot, or neither ship will be touching and both may fire. 

IMHO, dog fighst are no problem at all.  Plan and predict better.


Enimo Et Fide


#7 Parakitor

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:24 AM

DoubleNot7 said:

 

"First the tailing pilot moves and flying into his target, is moved back, loses the action. Now the tailed higher skill pilot flys on. Since the rules states that if the bases are no longer touching, ships can again fire at each other, the tailing (lower skill) pilot can actually take a shot now (assuming the targer is in his firing arc). The action is lost, but the opportunity to fire is still there!

In short: While the higher skill pilot chasing the lower skill pilot ends up having no action and no shot, the lower skill pilot chasing the high skill pilot looses the action but gets a shot! So the lower skill pilot has the clear advantage here!"

 

Your premnise here is 100% wrong.  All movement is resolved before shooting.  So either both ships will be touching or overlapping and neither will have a shot, or neither ship will be touching and both may fire. 

IMHO, dog fighst are no problem at all.  Plan and predict better.

 

 

Um, he's talking about tailing. That means the ships don't have each other in their firing arcs.

Scenario 1
[Low PS]    --------->         [High PS]
                             [Low PS][High PS]
                             [Low PS][High PS]-------------->
                             [Low PS]                                 [High PS]
Result: the low-skilled pilot can open fire on the higher skilled pilot because the bases are not touching

Scenario 2
[High PS][Low PS]-------------->
[High PS]                                 [Low PS]
[High PS]    ------------>           [Low PS]
                                  [High PS][Low PS]
Result: the high-skilled pilot cannot fire on the low-skilled pilot he was tailing, because now they're touching.

So his premise wasn't entirely wrong, but I do agree that this game does not favor tailing maneuvers, per se. Actually, X-wings are probably the best craft for tailling because they can go pretty slow. TIE fighters do better if they break off, then come in at an angle and barrel roll out of the opponent's firing arc. TIE fighters just don't tail very well. You've just got to practice planning maneuvers and you'll get the hang of it.


"That starship won't fly, Bastila."


#8 dvang

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:58 AM

ArcticSnake said:

Take note that you are allowed to go through enemy ships, so unless you have TIEs at the 3 turn, 3 bank and 2 turn endpoints as well then I would agree that the x-wing has no way out.

Exactly. 

Yes, it can work if you have a LOT of TIEs to throw in front of an enemy ship. In that case, break out the K-turn. Or, suck up the loss of action for a turn and move short forward, for example, so you barely move and leaving the rest of the TIEs in front of you, with them facing the wrong way and unable to shoot you, while you can shoot them. Even without an action to TL or focus, rolling 4 dice at range 1 will hurt a TIE. They all be in front of your X-wing, so no need for a focus to defend with. Etc.



#9 Chainmaille Smith

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 04:02 PM

Remember you have to consider where your target is going before you decide your move. In real dogfights top aces still lost sight of there mark sometimes.

Rebel Alliance   5 A-wings 2 B-wings 1 E-wing 4 X-wings 2 Y-wings 2 YT-1300 2 HWK-290
Galactic Empire 2 Tie Defenders 2 Tie Phantoms 5 Tie Interceptors 1 Tie Interceptor Blood stripes 1 Royal Guard Tie Interceptors 1 Tie Bombers 6 Tie Fighters 2 Tie Advanced 2 Firespray-31 2 Lamda Shuttle
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#10 DrTesla

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 05:47 AM

Thank you for ypur input guys. Lately I came to the same conclusion: Ties suck at tailing x-wings.

But still a similar topic haunts me when I play my tie-swarm of academy pilots (skill1). Everything on the rebel side will move after them. So for me plotting my maneuvers with 6-7 ties is easy, because I know exactely how the playing field looks like. So unless I missjudge the distance or angle, I wont crash into anyone.

However the poor rebel player has no idea where my many ties will end up so he'll regularly loose actions by crashing into them…. Its actually quite fun to block the anticipated path with academy ties. It just feels wrong somehow, you know, them actually being the less skilled pilots and all…



#11 Grimwalker

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 04:46 AM

DrTesla said:

Thank you for ypur input guys. Lately I came to the same conclusion: Ties suck at tailing x-wings.

But still a similar topic haunts me when I play my tie-swarm of academy pilots (skill1). Everything on the rebel side will move after them. So for me plotting my maneuvers with 6-7 ties is easy, because I know exactely how the playing field looks like. So unless I missjudge the distance or angle, I wont crash into anyone.

However the poor rebel player has no idea where my many ties will end up so he'll regularly loose actions by crashing into them…. Its actually quite fun to block the anticipated path with academy ties. It just feels wrong somehow, you know, them actually being the less skilled pilots and all…

 

Exactly.  You're very likely to be planning your move based on the X-Wing's current position, so just choose a maneuver that won't overlap it.  If you think he's going to go left and he winds up going to the right, well, that's just an effect of different pilot skill.  Ideally you can look at his available maneuvers and make a pretty good guess about where he will go.

 

As for the Swarm Maneuver…yeah, it's so much fun it should be taxed.  Actions are force multipliers factored into the unit cost--depriving your opponent of those options means their squad is less effective overall than they planned for. I look at it as the "here they come" moment from Return of the Jedi…doesn't matter how good the rebel pilots are, when there are enemy ships coming right at them, they can't do much more than grit their teeth and survive the first wave.






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