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about the timing structure when Dragon Sight is in play


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#1 sky_cuson

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:42 AM

Dragon sight says " If if is Summer,when you declare a challenge type,your opponent must declare defenders before you declare attackers. The opportunity for your opponent to declare defenders after you declare attackers is lost."

When I declare a challenge type, my opponenet must declare defenders. My question is that if he has to kneel those characters at the same time, or just to declare and do not kneel before I kneel my characters as attackers?

The other question is what about a character with naval enhancement controlled by defender? Can he declare that character as defender via the naval enhancement after I declare attackers?



#2 ktom

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:08 AM

sky_cuson said:

When I declare a challenge type, my opponenet must declare defenders. My question is that if he has to kneel those characters at the same time, or just to declare and do not kneel before I kneel my characters as attackers?
Kneeling the character is part of declaring the attacker/defender. You cannot separate the two. So yes, the defenders are knelt (as part of declaring them) before the attackers are declared.

sky_cuson said:

The other question is what about a character with naval enhancement controlled by defender? Can he declare that character as defender via the naval enhancement after I declare attackers?
Probably yes (although we need to see a rules insert to be sure). The discussion is in another thread.



#3 sky_cuson

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 12:46 PM

Thank you Ktom. And now I have three more questions.

1) If I have no char with military icon in play, can I declare a military challenge? If so, can I put Horseback Archers into play from my hand through player action as soon as my opponent declare defender?

2) Can I declare no attacker after my opponent declare his defender, even if I have eligible characters in play?

3) If my opponent declare no defender, can he put Catelyn Stark into play and kneel as defender after I declare attacker?



#4 Skowza

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:28 PM

this might help you…

ktom said:

Normally, the anatomy of a challenge looks like this:

1. Initiate Challenge
1a. Attacker announces challenge type
1b. Attacker declares/kneels attacking characters.

2. Player Actions

3. Defend Challenge
3a. Attacker identifies Stealth "targets"
3b. Defender declares/kneels defending characters

4. Player Actions

5. Resolve challenge

When Dragon Sight is in play and applicable, that sequence changes to the following:

1. Initiate Challenge
1a. Attacker announces challenge type
1b. Defender declares/kneels defending characters
1c. Attacker declares/kneels attacking characters.

2. Player Actions

[3. Defend Challenge
3a. Attacker identifies Stealth "targets"]
NOTE: This technically still happens, but it is virtually meaningless.

4. Player Actions

5. Resolve challenge


So, the only thing that really changes is that declaring defenders essentially becomes part of initiating the challenge. Note that the normal things REQUIRED to initiate a challenge (announcing challenge type AND declaring attackers) still must take place. The basic rule "you must declare at least one attacking character in order to initiate a challenge" is not contradicted, suspended or superseded by anything in Dragon Sight's text.

Also note that since the opportunity to declare defenders at the "normal time" goes away, stealth essentially becomes meaningless and will not keep a defending character out of a particular challenge. Stealthing a character that is already participating as a defender will not "bounce" it out of the challenge or otherwise stop it from adding its STR as a defender.

When you take the above and apply it to the original questions, you get the following:

- The attacking player MUST declare at least one attacking character after seeing which characters will be defending. It is part of initiating the challenge (a process you started by announcing the challenge type). If you don't declare at least one attacking character, you didn't initiate the challenge. And if you didn't initiate the challenge, there is nothing for those declared defenders to be participating in. So no, Dragon Sight cannot be used to back out of kneeling attackers after seeing how big the defense will be.



#5 ktom

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:00 AM

sky_cuson said:

Thank you Ktom. And now I have three more questions.

1) If I have no char with military icon in play, can I declare a military challenge? If so, can I put Horseback Archers into play from my hand through player action as soon as my opponent declare defender?

2) Can I declare no attacker after my opponent declare his defender, even if I have eligible characters in play?

3) If my opponent declare no defender, can he put Catelyn Stark into play and kneel as defender after I declare attacker?

See the above for a complete explanation, but the short answers are:

1. No.

2. No.

3. Not sure what you mean by "put Catelyn Stark into play and kneel as defender." But Yes - he can use Catelyn Starks ability to put her into play (already knelt) as a defender.



#6 HastAttack

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 02:37 AM

I was wondering how Walder Frey ineracts with Dragon Sight - After defenders are declared he joins in the challenge on the side with the highest strength

 

I assume this still occurs in step 4 of the action window - the normal step after defenders have been declared

 

Also I assume, maybe incorrectly, that this would be the first action - i.e. before anyone else can do something to reduce / increase some character strenghts



#7 ktom

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:42 AM

Walder's passive ability would kick in during Step 4 of the "initiate challenge" window - instead of the usual Step 4 of the "assign stealth/declare defenders" window - because that's where the defenders were declared. This is, of course, before you get to the "Player Action" window between initiating the challenge and assigning stealth/declaring defenders.



#8 Khudzlin

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 06:32 PM

Would attackers have been declared at this point?



#9 ktom

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:45 AM

Khudzlin said:

Would attackers have been declared at this point?
Yes. Of course. When you're dealing with Dragon Sight, the "declare challenge" framework action window has three framework events:

  • Attacker declares challenge type and opponent
  • Defender declares/kneels defending characters
  • Attacker declares/kneels attacking characters

After you do all three of those things, you move on to passives and responses to any and all of them. That's where Walder would kick in. It's no different than no being able to resolve passives/Responses to winning/losing a challenge until after claim, unopposed, and renown are resolved.

Ultimately, though, it wouldn't matter if attackers had been declared at that point or not because Walder's ability is passive and is initiated "after at least 1 defender is declared during a challenge." So he is initiated based on the declaration of attackers, not there being participating characters on both sides. Of course, there is no scenario in which his ability will kick in when there are only defenders, though.



#10 Saneth

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 07:38 AM

Another question on Dragon Sight.

In Melee, with the Crown Regent title, how does it interract ?

The title says This title also has a special ability that allows you to redirect one challenge each round. After a player initiates a challenge and declares a target and attackers, you may use this title to make that player choose a new target for the attack!

So if we apply this, at the time the redirection can be used, we have also defenders assigned in the challenge. What happens ?



#11 ktom

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:20 AM

You redirect and a new player becomes the defending player. BUT:

  1. The new defending player will not be able to declare defenders in the "normal" place because Dragon Sight is still wiping out that opportunity.
  2. The current defending characters, who have not been specifically removed from the challenge, will still be participating and will still count their STR toward resolution.

Effectively, all you have done by redirecting at that point is to change the identity of the defending player - which could have implications for claim, Renown, Deadly, a other "after you win/lose/resolve a challenge" effects.



#12 Saneth

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:16 AM

Clear answer, thank you.



#13 stormwolf27

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:25 PM

ktom said:

You redirect and a new player becomes the defending player. BUT:

  1. The new defending player will not be able to declare defenders in the "normal" place because Dragon Sight is still wiping out that opportunity.
  2. The current defending characters, who have not been specifically removed from the challenge, will still be participating and will still count their STR toward resolution.

Effectively, all you have done by redirecting at that point is to change the identity of the defending player - which could have implications for claim, Renown, Deadly, a other "after you win/lose/resolve a challenge" effects.

Now that's just sneaky… :-P


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#14 Ruvion

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 11:12 PM

You redirect and a new player becomes the defending player. BUT:

  1. The new defending player will not be able to declare defenders in the "normal" place because Dragon Sight is still wiping out that opportunity.
  2. The current defending characters, who have not been specifically removed from the challenge, will still be participating and will still count their STR toward resolution.

Effectively, all you have done by redirecting at that point is to change the identity of the defending player - which could have implications for claim, Renown, Deadly, a other "after you win/lose/resolve a challenge" effects.

I assume that this is true for Lord Commander of the Kingsguard effect as well; however, if the challenge was unopposed, then the Supporting player cannot defend in the place for the original target because of Dragon Sight?



#15 ktom

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 05:31 AM

Hmm. Well, remember that Lord Commander is technically a cancel. It cancels the declaration of (no) defenders and allows the Lord Commander to "replay" the declaration of defenders with him/her as the new defending player. So, since each framework event has its own opportunity for saves/cancels, I'd say that the Lord Commander redirect happens completely between the "declare defenders" and "declare attackers" steps - and allows the Lord Commander to "replay" the "declare defenders" step to declare his own defenders. Of course, this would still be before any attackers are declared.

 

Similarly, the "Supports" mechanic allows the supporting player to declare defenders "in place" of the original player declaring no defenders. It technically happens as part of the "declare defenders" framework event. So, with Dragon Site, you would still have the opportunity to declare defenders for the supported player, but you will be doing it "blind" - before any attackers are declared.


Edited by ktom, 12 November 2013 - 05:33 AM.


#16 mdc273

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 03:36 PM

Did we ever get an official answer to the post-Dragon Sight Framework? WWDrakey or someone had sent in a question I thought. It was regarding all the action windows and such and whether there was an action window before the Declare Defenders action or something.



#17 ktom

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 06:40 PM

I'm not sure what the question you're asking is. The text on Dragon Sight says that between naming challenge type and declaring attackers, the defending player must declare defenders. There is no opportunity for player actions between naming challenge type and declaring attackers, so I'm not sure why someone would think the text of Dragon Sight adds any along with the requirement to declare defenders?

 

The official answer is that the Dragon-Sight-Revised "anatomy of a challenge" works as quoted/outlined above. Is there an example of a particular situation or card effect that's in question within the Dragon Sight context?


Edited by ktom, 12 November 2013 - 06:41 PM.


#18 mdc273

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 02:21 PM

It had to do with the Player Action Windows and where they went. Because normally the first step in initiating a challenge is declaring attackers and then player actions. The question was whether or not that player action window completely disappeared or not before declaration of defenders.



#19 ktom

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 03:51 PM

The way that's being asked is confusing me a bit, so I'm not sure how to answer. It probably comes down to one of the following, though:

 

1. Normally, in order for a challenge to be initiated, the attacking player must complete a 2-step process of a) naming the challenge type and defending player, and b) declaring attacking characters. There is no room for player actions until the entire process of initiating the challenge is over. With Dragon Sight, the 2-step process is extended to a 3-step process of a) the attacking player naming the challenge type and defending player, b) the defending player declaring defending characters, and c) the attacking player declaring attacking characters. There still cannot break up process for initiating the challenge and there is no room for player actions until the entire (extended) process of initiating the challenge is over. So no, there are no player actions before declaring attackers or defenders with Dragon Sight, just like there are no player actions between announcing the challenge type/opponent and declaring attackers under normal circumstances.

 

2. The player action window between declaring attackers and defenders is an entirely separate and independent thing. It is not associated with declaring either attackers or defenders. So when Dragon Sight moves the declaration of defenders to before the declaration of attackers, there is no reason to think that it also moves the entirely separate and independent player action window, too. The action window after declaring attackers stays where it is. It does not disappear. It's just that there is no "declare defenders" on the other end of it. But it is still there if you want to do tricky things like use Lost Oasis to give an attacker stealth, then assign stealth no to keep a defender out of the challenge (those have already been declared), but to create the "after a character is stealthed" response opportunity.

 

The TL/DR version is that, as outlined above, only the framework event "declare defenders" is moved by Dragon Sight. Everything else stays the same - and you cannot interrupt the "initiate challenge" framework window (which now includes declaring defenders) with player actions.



#20 mdc273

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 04:39 PM

Yea. I guess that really is the only valid interpretation. It still doesn't feel right, though. I don't feel like the defending player is supposed to lose their Player Action Window.






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