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Cluster Missiles at Short Range?


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#1 heychadwick

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:05 AM

Hi All,

 

I've heard a number of people remark about how they don't care for Cluster Missiles.  Those are the missiles with a range of 1-2 that do two seperate attacks with 3 attack die.  You can only use a focus for one of them (offense or defense).  The idea is that the Concussion Missile is better with 4 dice and one blank gets turned into a hit.  

What about the ability to shoot Cluster Missiles at short range?  Wouldn't that mean you get an extra die, as well.  If so, you can get two 4 die attacks!  Most Rebels wouldn't expect it and it could be a great way to take someone out quick.  Or at least hurt them bad.  If you had a focus to ensure you could make one of those hits do some damage, you have the potential to take out an Xwing with one click of the fire button.  

 

Do you have to declare your weapons, etc to your opponent?  Is it an open game?



#2 jetsetter

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:25 AM

Range bonuses don't apply to secondary weapons.



#3 ziggy2000

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:39 AM

jetsetter said:

Range bonuses don't apply to secondary weapons.

This.



#4 Parakitor

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:54 AM

It's easiest to find this little caveat at the bottom of the back page of the rules manual.



#5 radiskull

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:10 AM

heychadwick said:

Do you have to declare your weapons, etc to your opponent?  Is it an open game?

Yes. You cannot keep secret the ships and cards you have in the game.



#6 Acebaur

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:00 AM

Cluster missiles are ok, but the problem is that as you stated you can only use focus on one of the attacks and also that it is two separate attacks. So you attack an X-wing with essentially 6 dice and he gets 4 dice in defense because it's a separate attack.  Concussion missiles are 4 dice to 2. so he still has 2 less dice than you. Granted attack dice are better than agility dice but still. In my experience they either pwn someone or do nothing at all. They'd be useful against a Y-wing if you knew your opponent was running one but concussions will do better in general.



#7 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:26 PM

Acebaur said:

Cluster missiles are ok, but the problem is that as you stated you can only use focus on one of the attacks and also that it is two separate attacks. So you attack an X-wing with essentially 6 dice and he gets 4 dice in defense because it's a separate attack.  Concussion missiles are 4 dice to 2. so he still has 2 less dice than you. Granted attack dice are better than agility dice but still. In my experience they either pwn someone or do nothing at all. They'd be useful against a Y-wing if you knew your opponent was running one but concussions will do better in general.

Cluster Missiles do close the gap in effectiveness against low-Agility targets, but even against a Y-wing they're only just as good as Concussion Missiles. (If you can pick up an extra action somehow, the Concussion Missiles are far better.)



#8 DoubleNot7

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:39 AM

I have found the cluster missiles far more useful and effective in my games.


Enimo Et Fide


#9 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:21 AM

DoubleNot7 said:

 

I have found the cluster missiles far more useful and effective in my games.

 

I don't mean to flame you, but unless you're (incorrectly) granting them a bonus to attack at Range 1, that's not mathematically plausible.

[EDIT: Okay, I retract that. If you don't make a habit of finding ways to stack extra offensive bonuses on your missiles, and you often face low-Agility targets (e.g., Rebels), it's possible to describe Cluster Missiles as more reliable than Concussion Missiles--although they have about the same average damage.



#10 dvang

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:16 AM

Cluster missles have a higher potential maximum (ie, potential 3x2=6 hits, vs 4x1=4 hits).  However, since the defender gets their defensive dice against each attack, the overall average will be lower. (6 vs 4 = 3 to 2, 4 vs 2 = 2 to 1 … or 6 vs 6 = 1 to 1, 4 vs 3 = 4 to 3).

As you can see, the odds get significantly better for the cluster missiles as the defender's number of defense dice get lower.



#11 Cid_MCDP

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:26 AM

As others have mentioned, Secondary Weapon Systems don't get an extra Attack die for being Range 1(however, they also don't give the extra defend die when you shoot somebody at Range 3- don't forget that little tidbit). 

As for Clusters vs. Concussions, depends on what you're shooting at. If I know I'm going after a Y-Wing or two (or maybe the YT-1300 once those drop), damn right I'm stocking Clusters. :) Otherwise, Concussions are usually situationally better. Neither are terrible though. 

 



#12 DoubleNot7

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:55 PM

Vorpal Sword said:

DoubleNot7 said:

 

I have found the cluster missiles far more useful and effective in my games.

 

I don't mean to flame you, but unless you're (incorrectly) granting them a bonus to attack at Range 1, that's not mathematically plausible.

[EDIT: Okay, I retract that. If you don't make a habit of finding ways to stack extra offensive bonuses on your missiles, and you often face low-Agility targets (e.g., Rebels), it's possible to describe Cluster Missiles as more reliable than Concussion Missiles--although they have about the same average damage.

 

Thanks so much…  I never said anything about range bonus for a secondary weapon or any other issues.  In general and across the board under all conditions in our games, my personal experience is that I have had better outcomes using the cluster missiles vs cobncussion missiles.  Take a simple statement for what it is and do not make assumptions or read into it.


Enimo Et Fide


#13 CPTMcMurphy

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:05 AM

Cluster Missiles are probably best for low skilled pilots who may not get a chance to target lock until they are at range one from thier target.  Against an Imperial player these missiles are just about useless, but against a Rebel player these missiles are acceptable upgrades.  That is because most Rebel ship have a lower agility value than Imperial ships.



#14 Kaxel Vofer

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:58 PM

I use with Darth Vader, and Markmanship, for my it works good, greettings.


"That the reward for you, don´t be so high".


Kaxel Vofer.


#15 Forensicus

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 10:19 AM

Kaxel Vofer said:

I use with Darth Vader, and Markmanship, for my it works good, greettings.

I agree with you, having Darth Vader with TL and Markmanship in same round does work well for Cluster Missiles since he can use Markmanship on both rolls of the attacks with 3 Attack dices. Would also work for Marek Steele eventhough he needs 2 rounds to aquire the same benefit (i.e. getting the TL in one round and then using Markmanship when he fires the Cluster Missiles)

 

I haven't done any proper odds calculations to back my claim up, but I guess someone (with more stats skills than me) could easily do that


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#16 Kaxel Vofer

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:14 PM

Forensicus said:

Kaxel Vofer said:

 

I use with Darth Vader, and Markmanship, for my it works good, greettings.

 

 

I agree with you, having Darth Vader with TL and Markmanship in same round does work well for Cluster Missiles since he can use Markmanship on both rolls of the attacks with 3 Attack dices. Would also work for Marek Steele eventhough he needs 2 rounds to aquire the same benefit (i.e. getting the TL in one round and then using Markmanship when he fires the Cluster Missiles)

 

I haven't done any proper odds calculations to back my claim up, but I guess someone (with more stats skills than me) could easily do that

I use the Concussion Missiles with Marek, because I prefer to use the missiles in early phases in the game, to try to debilitatre the others ships, greettings.


"That the reward for you, don´t be so high".


Kaxel Vofer.





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