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Contemplative & Ambitious Talents


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#1 Kartigan

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:00 PM

Is just me or do both of these talents suck?  They both allow you to spend fortune to convert extra dice to stance dice, yet it seems mathematically that just spending the fortune to get a fortune die is a much better option.  Am I missing something?

I was considering changing them to "exhaust this card" to convert an extra stance die, but that may be too good.  Maybe convert 2 extra dice to stance dice (though again that may be too good and often times you don't have that many extra dice anyway)?  Anyone have any thoughts on this?



#2 Yepesnopes

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:44 PM

Talents are not balanced between them, neither action cards, career abilities… Some are just better/ more useful than others.

The rule you propose sounds fine, but I wouldn't mind.


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#3 Delwyn

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:34 PM

Something to keep in mind is that you can only spend one Fortune Point on adding a Fortune Die to your roll.  These talents will let you spend a second FP on the roll to increase your chances - that extra edge might be important early in an encounter/scene when you've not had the chance to advance your stance meter very deep.  Add to that, Contemplative lets you convert a die in excess of your stance meter.

Like pretty much all Talents they're situational but they can be useful.



#4 Yepesnopes

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:57 PM

Delwyn said:

Something to keep in mind is that you can only spend one Fortune Point on adding a Fortune Die to your roll. 

I don't think this limitation exist in the raw rules of the game. Are you sure this is not some kind of house rule put out by the GM?

 

Cheers,

Yepes


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#5 gruntl

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:14 AM

Yepesnopes said:

Delwyn said:

 

Something to keep in mind is that you can only spend one Fortune Point on adding a Fortune Die to your roll. 

 

 

I don't think this limitation exist in the raw rules of the game. Are you sure this is not some kind of house rule put out by the GM?

 

Cheers,

Yepes

I have not seen this rule either, I allow my players to spend as many fortune points they want on checks.

I haven't actually looked at the probabilities before, always assumed that there would be a slight edge to converting an additional dice compared to an additional white die. But you're right, for straight success it's seems to always be better to just add a fortune die. It would be interesting to look at the chance of getting boons though. That may be better with the conversion perhaps.

Using the talent as an exhaust talent seems like a good fix. That, or allow them to spend stress to use it (no real point in encounter mode but see below). 

I actually used Ambitious on my very first character, I mainly used it in story mode to be able to use stance dice for those checks. Turns out I should just have added fortune dice…

 



#6 Ceodryn

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 01:07 AM

Hmmm, since it's already possible to spend Stress to convert additional stance dices, I had read those talents as converting an extra stance die, on top of your maximum allowed by your stance meter, but maybe my interpretation was wrong. Although, it would make sense someone Ambitious could go above and beyond what they can do.

You're right though that a Fortune die is always better than an additional Stance die. I would allow the talents to be spend by using 1 stress instead of a fortune die. Exhausting would work too, but I find tracking exhausted talents more difficult than adding 1 stress, and since the stress = more stance mechanism already exist, it's easy in the mind of players to apply the same idea.

Cheers

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#7 Delwyn

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 01:08 AM

Ok, maybe I'm imagining having read a rule that doesn't actually exist, in which case you can safely ignore me - my brain is leaking TEW at present and it's been a year or so since I've really looked properly at the rulebooks sonreir



#8 Jericho

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:58 AM

They may not be super great talents, but they are useful, IMO.

First, regarding pure success chances, a fortune die has a 1 in 3 chance of resulting in 1 success symbol.

The Conservative die has a 1 in 2 chance of having the same result.

The Reckless die has a 2 in 5 chance, I believe, but can result in double success symbols which a Fortune die cannot do.

So saying a Fortune die is better then a Stance die is false. Just depends on what you're looking for.

And I would definitely let these talents permit you to convert stance dice beyond your stance limit.

 

Lastly, roleplaying wise, these talents define your personality and demeanor, which Fortune dice don't. Fortune dice represent pure luck or the favour of the gods, not what your character is made of.

When my players choose talents, I always tell them, don't really mind the mechanical effect, just see if the Talent name fits your character concept and inspires you. Remember, talents also represent your characters influence on the party when you slot them in the party sheet.

Slotting Ambitious on a Party sheet can become a nice roleplaying moment as you describe how your character will make the other members more success oriented and competitive in the marketplace… :)

 

My two cents.


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#9 Kartigan

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:09 AM

Firstly, I think what you are forgetting Jericho is that the talents don't add a stance die, they merely convert a characteristic die into a stance die. So simply adding a Fortune die is much better than converting a stance die in every way, successes, boons, ability to combine and score multiple results and no negative side effects. Second, I agree that characters should be built around roleplaying concepts and not just min-maxed. But I do want to reward my players with unique mechanical abilities that fit their character concept. Not giving them "abilities" that are strictly worse than options that anyone has access to. The idea of stress is an interesting one, though once again that is just straight up worse than the Jack of all Trades talent. I think for now I may just go with exhausting the talent, that allows Contemplative and Ambitious characters to use their stance in story mode which reflects their personality. It is my interpretation of them as written that you must be in a stance to use them.

#10 Emirikol

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:31 AM

I let my players spend FPs at any time, even after a roll, one at a time until they get a success if they want.

 

It's like watching gambling in Vegas.  "Ed, do you REALLY want to go for it?  Hmmmm?  Do you want to spend that last fortune point?"


Since we're not dealing with straight numbers, and instead dice symbols, people have to go more with their GUT feeling on it  :)

 

Anyways, the talents are probably weak.  A good house rule like that is in order.

 

Those of us who don't use Talent Card Socketing, and instead just have ALL talents on ALL the time (except for the exhaustable ones), don't have to worry about stuff like this :)

 

jh



#11 Jericho

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:35 AM

Kartigan said:

Firstly, I think what you are forgetting Jericho is that the talents don't add a stance die, they merely convert a characteristic die into a stance die.  

Really? If that's so then a simple houserule would be to use FP to add an extra stance die (a bit like talents that make FPs convert into expertise dice) instead. Definitely better than the Fortune die, but with drawbacks, and more flavour roleplaying wise.


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#12 Kartigan

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:49 AM

Jericho said:

 

Kartigan said:

Firstly, I think what you are forgetting Jericho is that the talents don't add a stance die, they merely convert a characteristic die into a stance die.  

 

Really? If that's so then a simple houserule would be to use FP to add an extra stance die (a bit like talents that make FPs convert into expertise dice) instead. Definitely better than the Fortune die, but with drawbacks, and more flavour roleplaying wise.

 

 

Aye, that actually would be a very good solution.  I'm debating between that and allowing them to convert 2 Char dice to stance dice instead of 1, possibly for a stress instead of a fortune point.  Both would make the talents much more useful while staying true to their roleplaying roots.

On a side note anyone else have difficulty envisioning an "Ambitious" character being Conservative?  Is that supposed to represent a cold, calculating sort of ambition?  I'm just having a tougher time visualizing it instead of the recklessly ambitious character.  Anyway, thanks for the suggesitons everyone.

 

*Edit* On second thought I think adding a stance die for any check is way too powerful.  Stance dice are on average about twice as good as a fortune die, though they have the potential for drawbacks.  But I think it would completely replace the use of fortune for nearly every check (add least when you were in a stance to begin with since the cards require that).  

Instead I think I'll allow them to be used to suffer 1 stress to convert 2 extra dice to stance dice, even in story mode or when in a neutral stance.  That puts them about on par with the Jack of all Trades talent.  They'd generate more successes on average than Jack of all Trades, but at the cost of a slightly lower average increase to boons and the potential for negative side effects.  Plus it may not be able to be used to the fullest if you don't have 2 more char dice to convert.  If that turns out to be a little too strong I may limit (say only 1 die) or prevent their use unless you are actually in a stance.



#13 Immortus

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 04:20 AM

Situational i know, but would they not be good for a wardancer? 
Some of their career specific action cards gain "buffs" from changing between stances and dependant on depth into a stance. 



#14 Kartigan

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 05:33 AM

Immortus said:

Situational i know, but would they not be good for a wardancer? 
Some of their career specific action cards gain "buffs" from changing between stances and dependant on depth into a stance. 

 

Unfortunately the talents don't actually change what stance you are in, nor do they move your stance meter in either direction.  All they do is allow you to convert 1 extra charateristic die into a stance die for 1 fortune point.  Your stance, and your depth into it remain unchanged.



#15 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 06:31 AM

An alternate fix would be that spending stress at the beginning of the turn allows them to move two spaces on the track in the appropriate direction.


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