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#1 awayputurwpn

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:40 PM

Hey guys, I posted this on the d20radio boards, and figured I'd throw this up here too! Not sure how long these boards will be here but I know I made a post a while back about my quick-and-dirty Jedi system. It ended up being a little too dirty for my tastes, so I put together a Lightsaber Duelist specialization, and then followed with a Jedi career. 

Here is a link to my homebrews folder

They're still kind of in the design phase, having been somewhat playtested. One important point to note is that the Jedi Career specializations don't grant Force Rating 1. Also, I'm considering a change to the way Jedi get Force rating at the beginning of the game (ignore the "Jedi start with Force Rating 1" rule and add the following to the beginning paragraph of the Jedi Career description): 

"Jedi must start with Force Rating 1. They have the option of either spending 10 XP to attain Force Rating 1 at character creation or buying into the Force-Sensitive Exile specialization at character creation."

And that's what I've got so far! This is stated in the career description, but the Jedi career is intended for OTHER eras of play (such as at the Edge of another Sith Empire, such as the Old Sith, the New Sith, the True Sith or the One Sith.  

(Side note - book idea: and I'm totally going to write this: One Sith, True Sith, Old Sith, New Sith.) 

 



#2 awayputurwpn

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:54 PM

I went ahead and made changes and dropped a version 1.1 Jedi Career document in there, so disregard the Force Rating statement from the OP. I'd love whatever feedback you guys can give me!



#3 Tassedar

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:06 AM

Another homebrew that focused singularly on combat why take any other career. Probably not the response you want its nice work but as is in book imho is op to begin with.

#4 awayputurwpn

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 06:28 AM

Thanks for the thoughts. Which parts of the homebrew are focused too much on combat?

In my revisions based on feedback from others, I'm set on making Leadership a career bonus skill for Guardian (removing Resilience) and making Cool a Jedi career skill (removing Leadership). I'm also going to be moving Inspiring Rhetoric from Consular to Guardian and giving Guardian the Command talent.  



#5 Tassedar

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 07:07 AM

Its just a plethora of homebrew jedi career's out there. Most of them almost all involve making lightsabers more powerfull than they already are. Timeline wise there are no "jedi" for another 5 years. Also keep in mind the current force sensitive spec is very strong on its own. From a player standpoint look at the hired gun maurader tree and look how someone with force sensitivity would exploit that combo.

#6 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:51 AM

Tassedar said:

Another homebrew that focused singularly on combat why take any other career. Probably not the response you want its nice work but as is in book imho is op to begin with.

 

You think these are bad, you should have seen is first crack at a Jedi non-career specialization.  There's a reason it wound up getting re-modeled into a Lightsaber Duelist/Saber Rake non-career spec.  (Said with much friendly affection and good-natured ribbing Away)

As for the "all homebrew Jedi careers are focused on lightsaber combat," I'm trying to keep this sort of thing in mind for my own material.  I do agree that making a Jedi career that is "all about lightsabers and nothing but" is a big diservice to the notion of a Jedi… but at the same time, the lightsaber is one of the most iconic elements of a Jedi.  I guess the tricky part is finding that right balance between the two.  If nothing else, Away's efforts show that it's a lot harder than most people might think.  I've been working on and tweaking my own stuff for months, and only now I finally feel that things are starting to come together in terms of new talent mechanics and talent tree arrangement.

I don't envy the designers the back-and-forth discussions that probabl took place about how to arrange the Beta talent trees, particularly as they've got a much larger picture to worry about in the form of the entire product line.  Jokers like me and Away only have to worry about the short-term complice avergonzado_alegre


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#7 Tassedar

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:02 AM

I dont think they are bad just not needed to make "jedi" in eote. I would point out I see no homebrew bounty hunters that make you carbon copy of jango fett with double blasters and jetpack tallents. I would do my best to make characters within the current guide.

#8 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:30 AM

Tassedar said:

I dont think they are bad just not needed to make "jedi" in eote. I would point out I see no homebrew bounty hunters that make you carbon copy of jango fett with double blasters and jetpack tallents. I would do my best to make characters within the current guide.

 

Fair enough.  But some folks, myself included, like to tinker with any RPG system we get our mitts on.  Agree or disagree with the lack of Jedi material (beyond the lightsaber and three Force powers), some folks want more, while others would be happy with zero Force stuff at all.

To be honest, I've pretty strongly disagreed with some of Away's approaches to things, with the understanding that ultimately, that's not how I'd do it, but at the end of the day, it's his call as it's his material.

Though I might add that Jango Fett is already capable of being replicated in the current rules… you just need a thousand XP or so to pull it off, covering the Gadgeteer and Mercenary specializations at least, possibly with a side order of Survivalist and maybe even Pilot.  Even folks like Han Solo, Lando, and Chewbacca can be replicated with the given material.

But some folks have their eyes and hearts set on mimicing Luke's path to becoming a Jedi Knight, and would prefer not to wait two and a half years for the "official" material, being content to create their own and accept the consequences of having to totally revamap their character once Force & Destiny does get released.  Agree with it or not, a fugitive Jedi, custodian of fragments of Jedi training, either as an Order 66 survivor or having been taught by such a person, is an appealing character archetype for some players.  It's all a matter of taste, and for some, the current options in regards to "Jedi" fall short of the desired mark, as many of the "Can I play a Jedi?" type of threads both here in the Beta forum and over in the main forum will attest.

Agree or disagree, if someone wants to make their own Career or Specilizations for Jedi, and they're willing to share with the community and accept feedback on what does and doesn't work?  I say more power to them.

Sorry, didn't mean to go off on a tangent.  I'll put the soapbox away now.


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#9 awayputurwpn

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 10:45 AM

Tassedar said:

Its just a plethora of homebrew jedi career's out there. Most of them almost all involve making lightsabers more powerfull than they already are. Timeline wise there are no "jedi" for another 5 years. Also keep in mind the current force sensitive spec is very strong on its own. From a player standpoint look at the hired gun maurader tree and look how someone with force sensitivity would exploit that combo.

I went out of my way in the material to state that Jedi characters aren't appropriate for Rebellion-Era campaigns. This stuff is for games at the Edge of Other Empires, when Jedi were still around but decreased in number and hunted. Was my OP and the opening paragraph of the Career not clear on that point, or were you just not addressing them in your statement?

And what are Jedi talents supposed to do? Ignore lightsabers? 

i realize it's not for everyone. Most gaming groups, I'm sure, stick to the classic era for their games. And thats fine! But for the people it might help or inspire, such as the band of PCs immediately post-Order 66, I will be glad to continue refining my additions to this great game.

Aso I haven't seen any other Jedi careers! Am I living under a rock? Would someone be so kind as to point me in the right direction? I'd like to see what others have done.



#10 Tassedar

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 11:26 AM

The reason why you dont see any is because they have fallen to the background of the forums. Now if you are running a game outside of the source material era then alright go nuts i guess. Now as far as my comments about focusing on lightsabers i have seen very little effort put into the force in genneral. To me the lightsaber is not the most iconic thing about jedi its a weapon they use but not what defines a Jedi. (this is my opinon shared or not)

Dont take this as a dig at your work it apears you have put time into it and dedicated time into it and that is always to be respected. However It has been the most common thing ive seen about homebrew jedi regardless of the era. Which is to say lets choose one aspect and center all or most tallents around it. I understand you have the duelist tree and as such yeah i would expect lightsaber centered talents in it. ill make this observation

16/20 tallents affect the damage or use of the lightsaber in your tree

11/20 tallents in a damage dealing tree (hired gun/maurauder)

6/20 In the smuggler scoundrel tree

6/20 in Bountyhunter gadgeteer

there may be others but i just randomly picked a few

if you look at these trees you see alot of tallents(in most cases most) are not dedicated to doing damage where as almost all in the one you made are specificaly for damage output. While lore wise I will agree that Jedi are the most powerful beings in existance and i would expect that. But you stack that up against any other player they will feel useless or just plain redundant when standing next to you. Now would this tree be nice if there was an alternative to it as any other career then i would be alright game on.

Now that would be my critique of the tree you have presented now how i would change it.

Choose or create talents that would be a characteristic of a jedi duelist. Uncany reactions/Convicning demenor/Stalker

Another thing to concider with force sense powers a person who fully goes this tree and force exile with have at least 3 difficulty and 5 setback dice addded to any roll against it with the best armor. This i see as problem as a gm because the chance to cause strain or hurt you at all is going to be tough if not near impossible

Even Martial Jedi are "keepers of peace not soldiers" -Mace Windu

 



#11 Jegergryte

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:43 AM

A fully trained sense power for defence results in two times two difficulty upgrades, not increases (so no 2 difficulty dice added before purples has been turned into reds), to hit the force sensitive exile - if you're following beta updates, which we should. Additionally the force sensitive exile can, having invested lots of xp in the exile talent tree, add 1 to both ranged and melee defence (which I'd say doesn't turn it into a "general defence" or makes it stack with armour) - which results in 1 setback die derived from this talent tree against incoming attacks, be it melee or ranged - but not 2, as they don't apply against the same conditions.

So that's two upgrades - against two attacks (a third attack will only have to deal with +1 setback die from one of those two talents, plus potential armour) - that either turn an average to purples into two reds, or an easy in to one red and one purple, or a hard in to two red and one purple. Where do you get the three difficulty dice from? I may have overlooked something, but I honestly wonder as I can see nowhere on the force sensitive exile talent tree or the sense force power which support your numbers. Unless you're also referring to one or all of Away's different trees… then your math may be right, I can't be bothered to check just now.

Get the armour with the best available defence rating (1 - or 2 if you pick the personal deflector shield with no soak) - and lets say talents and armour stack when it comes to defence (they don't: page 134 beta book, middle of the page) - you're still "only" on 1 or 2 (depending on armour or shield) or 3 (if you want it to stack, and went for the shiled) defence/setback dice, before any dodge/side-step/defensive stance/cover enters into the equation. Granted this isn't bad per se, its perhaps better than other careers/talent trees where these defence bonuses grant upgrades, not setback dice to defence, and cost strain and/or manoeuvre… still, as is the difference is present, but I've still to feel the unbalancing or uneven distribution of power and beard in the group - granted the only force sensitive is female human, no beard (yet).

As for the talents trees in general, I like them, not sure I'd use them in my EotE campaign, but if I decided to do a test run of the KOTOR era or Legacy era I might pick these up - I have players who'd like to play Jedi, I think, not sure, particular if I set a game in the kotor-era…

The focus on damage and combat - well. In some eras the Jedi were more warriors than monks and hippys, like the war that culminated in the events surrouding the battles of ruusan for instance. Those jedi were more war and damage focused than, say, pre episode 1 jedi. Of course, making specific specs for specific eras could, I'd say would, be a waste of effort. What is "essential" Jedi? The force, harmony, knowledge, peace and lightsaber - more or less in that order. That means, in my opinion, that a jedi talent tree, or three if deciding on these kotor-roles that has cemented itself in the community ;) that you would need some social skills, some knowledge skills, "mental" skills -as in cool, vigilance, discipline and the like - and one combat skill only, the lightsaber.

For talents, I think Away's done a good job through the revisions - I haven't seen what Dono's up to yet - I may not agree on all the stuff, I mean, I might have limited the Lightsaber Master talent to once per encounter, but hey… I'm not hating it the way it is :) the talent trees are all right, perhaps some more re-use of the force exile tree for defence could be added to, for instance the sentinel tree, but meh.


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#12 Tassedar

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:31 PM

i get 3 difficulty dice because at engaged ranged a person using a blaster will have a difficulty of 3 a rifle of 4 to somone who is using melee weapons. then 2 from the spec 1 if they take force exile then armor another 1 grand total alot of dice either way.

Next you still dont adress the amount of damage output in compairison to other class's in some case you tripple the amount of damage output tallents.

Im sorry but your spec you have made is not ahead by a little in damage its ahead by alot with a weapon that requires only one advantage to crit and since crits cumulate every time one is issued and i would argue if somone survives the first hit most likely will not survive the second.

Like i said this is a good spec if there were any that came close to it respectivly but otherwise this is not one i personally would use or let any player i play with use in any time/era in star wars. Now that may color my thoughts perty brightly but I laid out my argument agree or disagree its your project but friends/fellow players ive talked to about it seems to agree. That dosent mean everyone does by any means so im sorry if what i say is offensive.



#13 Jegergryte

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:27 PM

I'm not disputing or disagreeing with the power of the lightsaber - and perhaps the trees does have more damage talents than others, although last time I checked it was 2 damage talents for the Jedi Guardian, whereas the Sentinel and Consular has none. The Duelist tree is still powerful, but has 2 pure damage talents, 2 lethal blows, the Fighting Form (expend destiny for damage bonus) and the crippling blow (causes strain damage if target moves). Thats 5 damage talents - 6 if you include the strain damage one, 7 if you include the scathing tirade talent which is also there - but is a strain damaging non-lighsaber talent. - I'm not sure if you've looked that the updated versions, we could be talking past each other.

Although I am disputing your difficulty at engaged with ranged weapons, engaged is easy (like short range): one difficulty die (page 132), plus 1 for ranged (light) weapons, or 2 for ranged (heavy) (page 135) - thats one die less than what you're proposing, and someone using ranged in a melee is going to have a hard time, as it should be - using a pistol/rifle in a melee is silly, that's why you got brawl to kick ass or a bayonet on the rifle to stab someone. There's still only 1 setback die from the exile tree, even if using ranged in a melee - its still a ranged attack; at least that's how I would treat it. Now if they used the rifle or pistol as an improvised melee weapon it'd be a melee skill check, and at that point the melee defence bonus from the exile tree would kick in - but that's still 1 setback die from defence, which does not stack with armour (page 134). But yes, using a large ranged weapon in melee is stupid, its not something you'd want to do… hardly an argument against melee weapons receiving talents and be put to good use. Is it?

Crits a cumulative yes, but you make a new roll every time. So if my first crit against my rodian player was 100 (pluss 20 for lethal blows 2), the second crit could still end up being 31 - by rolling 1, adding lethal blows (20) and 10 from exisiting critical injury. Sure, survival becomes less likely as time goes on yeah, no argument there. Although surviving 2 criticals isn't that rare - even if you by that point is inconscious; instant death (for PCs and Nemeses at least) only happens on 150 on the critical table.


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#14 Tassedar

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:49 AM

Errata range bands for vs meele while in engaged range is all I say. And just to add if you are unwilling to make any changes to your tree it is a strong inditment against your claim asking for feedback. I ask you work on your consular tree so we can see more into your thought process for jedi characters.

#15 Jegergryte

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:59 AM

I'm not trying to be rude, but you should look at who made the talent tree and who you're discussing with - its not the same person. I didn't make the/those talent tree(s), which should be obvious from the difference in nick names and avatars we use. He has obviously changed it since you first looked at it. I'm trying to discuss this project, and question some of your statements about rules, which I disagree on and cannot find support for - even if I'm wrong, you'd do me a service to direct me to page numbers and such, instead of holding back information, that way I can actually learn something and realise why I'm at fault.

Where is this errata for the range bands? I mean you may be right - which makes me wrong, which is fine - but I cannot find it in the final beta update. What I did find though, which I'd forgotten is that the melee wielding person receives a boost die on brawl or melee if the opponent tried a ranged attack while engaged against his opponent - but that is in the beta book. Can't find any changes of this in the beta updates, please direct me to updates and errata if there is some. Page numbers would be nice.

 


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"What about the future...? We can only hope, we cannot however account for the minutiae of the quanta, as all accidents in an infinite space are inevitable."

GMLovlie's/Jegergryte's Cubicle direct link to supplements here.


#16 Tassedar

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:21 AM

Sry bud just confused who it was but im not gunna go any deeper on this topic.

#17 awayputurwpn

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 01:51 AM

Hey guys, sorry I dropped out of the discussion. Was on vacation, and these boards don't do automated notifications aside from providing (now rather cumbersome) RSS feeds…so it was out of mind :-p

Annnnyway…I will be putting some changes into my Jedi career trees here shortly, and I do feel that the Duelist tree needs some further revision, so I'll be examining that as well. Thanks for hashing out some discussion on this topic; it's helpful to have other people's perspectives. Tassedar, your critiques and suggested revisions are most helpful. Thank you. 

Also, as I said before, if anyone has a line on anything anyone else has done on these forums for Jedi or lightsaber-related talents or anything else, I'd love to see what other people are thinking. 

Additionally, I also cannot find any errata to do with range bands. I do remember Sam clarifying in one of the threads that "Engaged" should be considered a subset of the Short range band, but other than that I can't find or recall anything else on range bands, official or semi-official.



#18 awayputurwpn

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:15 AM

As mentioned on the d20radio boards, I've made some big changes and here is version 2.1

After printing a copy out (Windows seems to garble parts of the PDF onscreen, but it looks fine printed and on the iPad), I'll be changing some colors slightly as well as adding a couple talent tree references that I had missed. Those will go up with the next update after some playtesting over the next couple weeks.



#19 Tassedar

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 05:00 PM

toughness adds +2 wounds



#20 Thebearisdriving

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:06 AM

Hey Away.

My two cents, just because it's een a while since I chimed in is:

I think any jedi : [insert flavour here] tree should require a Force rating 2 req, with something like a padawan tree forming the foundational portion in a force 1 rating prerequisite.  Lots of reasons for this, but in the end I feel that the youngling/padawan staage is an important one in the context of where characters start out, and that the notion of specialization should not be the first step onto the path of the jedi.

Also, I would reduce the career/spec skills granted by the specs.  using the force exile as a guide, I think these classes should be more narrowly focused, with fewer rewards for selecting them.

Otherwise I liked what I saw, though there are some graphical glitches in the pdf that I downloaded. Sentinel tree.  Could have just been my browser.

Some thoughts:

disciplined strike is like precise aim only much better.  Consider it taking a manuever to accomplish.

The sentinel:

-disciplined strike is like precise aim only much better. Consider it taking a manuever to accomplish.

-the sentinel talent should maybe be slightly renamed… Sentinel’s resistance?

Guardian:

-Redirection is a tiny bit complicated.

-Armor master: I don’t think vanilla guardians should get this.  I think that is a specialization for war jedi, like in the old republic, and even then only for specific Jedi.

-Force body is a bit complicated.  I get it, but I would say change it to a discipline/resistance check once you reach strain threshold.  Each time you would exceed the strain threshold, increase the difficulty of the check…

Cousellor:

-Is there a way to clarify whether absorption takes place before or after soak?

-Skillful power is GOOD.  Not really a criticism, but just an observation.

Again, it’s really awesome to see this work.  That’s some decent production quality and font.  I think the effort shows.

 

P.S. I went on vaca too, and work was super busy.  I feel bad because I dropped out of the convo too, so you're in good company…so to speak.  :)






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