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Looking for feedback on Rebel Wave 2 build


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#1 NewAgeChaos

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:27 PM

Hello everyone. I've been working on some squads to run with Wave 2 approaching us steadily and would like to hear the community's opinion on one in particular. My idea is essentially to mix high maneuverability with maneuver denial. This is the list:

 

Gray Squadron Pilot+ Ion Turret= 25 points

Gray Squadron Pilot+ Ion Turret= 25 points

Green Squadron Pilot+ Veteran Instincts+ Homing Missiles= 25

Green Squadron Pilot+ Veteran Instincts+ Homing Missiles= 25

Total= 100

 

The idea would be to use the Homing Missles to diminish the enemy number at the beginning of the first pass-- ideally whittling down the opponent's squad so that the ratio of ships becomes 1 to 1. From here it would just be all about picking the right target to ionize then weaving the A-Wings in and out-- hopefully out of LOS of as many enemy ships as possible. I understand the list has an inherent problem with firepower but I feel that, at least to me personally, the Homing Missiles and some mid-late game fire concentration should help even that out.

 

Let me know what you all think and any suggestions you have. I appreciate it.



#2 magadizer

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 03:48 PM

What is your thinking behind the Gray Squadron as opposed to the Gold Squadron? What pilots on the other side do you think you will be facing which you need to have that bump from pilot skill 2 to 4?

The points you save in moving to Gold Squadron could buy you a Proton Torpedo if you want added punch, or a couple Astromechs, a shield upgrade or something else.

Likewise with the Green Squad pilots and Veteran Insticts. You are moving up to Pilot skill 5, which won't have you shooting before most elite opponents. If you leave them at 3, you will still be shooting before the most commonly used generics anyways. So I don't think this is a sound use of points personally.

But maybe I'm overlooking something. If you want a 2 Y, 2 A list, I would tweak it more like this personally:

Total Squad Points: 100

Pilot: Gold Squadron Pilot 1
Y-Wing (18)
Upgrades:

  • Ion Cannon Turret (5)



Pilot: Gold Squadron Pilot 2
Y-Wing (18)
Upgrades:

  • Ion Cannon Turret (5)



Pilot: Arvel Crynyd
A-Wing (23)
Upgrades:

  • Cluster Missiles (4)



Pilot: Green Squadron Pilot 1
A-Wing (19)
Upgrades:

  • Push The Limit (3)
  • Homing Missles (5)

 

Its not a strong or seriously competitive build, but it's the sort of fun build I will be running at home once I get the A-wings.


Be seeing you.

#3 Endgame124

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:39 PM

A agree with Magadizer that the upgrades for Gray Squadron and Veteran instincts probably aren't worth it, but I'd take the extra points and turn them into dutch:

Dutch w/ Ion Cannon 28
Gold Squadron w/ Ion Cannon & R2  24
Green Squadron w/ Homing Missile & Push the Limits 27
Prototype w/ Concussion Missile 22

This allows for you to pull target lock and focus on both of the missiles.  The concussion can be used more effectively against models that don't have an evade token, and the homing can be used against evaded models.  Against a rebel opponent, the homing missile may not be much of an advantage, but it should be somewhat effective against Ties.    Still, I wouldn't hold my breath on more than one or two damage with the missiles against most targets.

 

Alternatively, you could drop both missles for some droids for extra durability:

Dutch w/ Ion Cannon & R2D2
Gray Squadron w/ Ion Cannon and R5-D8
Green Squadron w/ Push the limits
Prototype A-Wing

The Green Squadron can be offensive or defensive as you desire, while dutch and the gray squadron tank it up quite a bit.  The prototype isn't going to do much more that your average academy tie unless you can hit a target with focus and a target lock at range 1.  

 



#4 ScottieATF

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:36 PM

Endgame124 said:

A agree with Magadizer that the upgrades for Gray Squadron and Veteran instincts probably aren't worth it, but I'd take the extra points and turn them into dutch:

Dutch w/ Ion Cannon 28
Gold Squadron w/ Ion Cannon & R2  24
Green Squadron w/ Homing Missile & Push the Limits 27
Prototype w/ Concussion Missile 22

This allows for you to pull target lock and focus on both of the missiles.  The concussion can be used more effectively against models that don't have an evade token, and the homing can be used against evaded models.  Against a rebel opponent, the homing missile may not be much of an advantage, but it should be somewhat effective against Ties.    Still, I wouldn't hold my breath on more than one or two damage with the missiles against most targets.

 

Alternatively, you could drop both missles for some droids for extra durability:

Dutch w/ Ion Cannon & R2D2
Gray Squadron w/ Ion Cannon and R5-D8
Green Squadron w/ Push the limits
Prototype A-Wing

The Green Squadron can be offensive or defensive as you desire, while dutch and the gray squadron tank it up quite a bit.  The prototype isn't going to do much more that your average academy tie unless you can hit a target with focus and a target lock at range 1.  

 

I don't think dropping the missles is even a real option.  You just can't deal enough damage without them.

I think you are better off dropping the Grey to Gold and switching Vet. Instincts for Push the Limit.  That way you are getting the most from that intial salvo that you can.  I think the marginal increase in skill is a waste of points and an upgrade slot.



#5 magadizer

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:45 PM

Endgame124 said:

A agree with Magadizer that the upgrades for Gray Squadron and Veteran instincts probably aren't worth it, but I'd take the extra points and turn them into dutch:

Dutch w/ Ion Cannon 28
Gold Squadron w/ Ion Cannon & R2  24
Green Squadron w/ Homing Missile & Push the Limits 27
Prototype w/ Concussion Missile 22

This allows for you to pull target lock and focus on both of the missiles.  The concussion can be used more effectively against models that don't have an evade token, and the homing can be used against evaded models.  Against a rebel opponent, the homing missile may not be much of an advantage, but it should be somewhat effective against Ties.    Still, I wouldn't hold my breath on more than one or two damage with the missiles against most targets.

 

If you are only going to get one named pilot out of this 2 Y, 2 A build, Dutch is probably the best one in terms of his ability. Only problem is that you have to make your A-wings move with a clunky Y-wing to stay close and benefit from his ability. My thinking was to make them more independent, move Arvel around and try to "crash" him. I put cluster missiles on him because those can be used at Range 1, and if you are trying to get in close a lot, you might be to close to fire the others.


Be seeing you.

#6 Eruletho

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:18 AM

If you REALLY wanted to maximize the opening salvo, then you could just do this:

Total Squad Points: 100
2x Gold Squadron Pilot w/ Ion Cannon and 1x Proton Torpedo
2x Green Squadron Pilot w/ Concussion or Cluster Missiles



#7 Endgame124

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:23 AM

ScottieATF said:

 

I don't think dropping the missles is even a real option.  You just can't deal enough damage without them.

I think you are better off dropping the Grey to Gold and switching Vet. Instincts for Push the Limit.  That way you are getting the most from that intial salvo that you can.  I think the marginal increase in skill is a waste of points and an upgrade slot.

 

 

How many times have you fired a Proton Torp and missed a tie entirely?  Homing missiles will at least let you ignore evade tokens, and the concussion missile will save you from rolling 3 blanks on your attack, but thats still 9 points worth of missiles.  Thats over half the price of adding a prototype A-Wing for maybe getting an extra hit on the table.   I think if you really want missiles to work, you want to run Horton, Wedge, and an A-Wing, and even then I'm not 100% sold on the missile on the A-Wing.  



#8 NewAgeChaos

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:28 AM

Thanks a lot for the advice! 

I was actually debating last night while I worked up this list whether or not to go with the higher Pilot Skill and honest, I have no idea what my rationale was at the time… So, I've adjusted the list a bit to reflect the suggestions and my much clearer cognitive processes.

 

Gold Squadron Pilot+ Ion Turret= 23

Gold Squadron Pilot+ Ion Turret= 23

Green Squadron Pilot+ Homing Missiles+ Push the Limit= 27

Green Squadron Pilot+ Homing Missiles+ Push the Limit= 27

 

I do recognize that it isn't exactly the most competitive list around-- more for fun than anything else.



#9 NewAgeChaos

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:54 AM

The reason I am going with the two homing missiles instead of two cheaper ones and a proton is because the Homing Missiles/Push the Limit combo allows me to, potentially, fire them with both a target lock that can be expended for rerolls and a focus. Additionally, evades are ignored. If there is any way to guarantee success with them-- it is even realistically possible to pop two ships in the salvo.



#10 Endgame124

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:08 AM

NewAgeChaos said:

The reason I am going with the two homing missiles instead of two cheaper ones and a proton is because the Homing Missiles/Push the Limit combo allows me to, potentially, fire them with both a target lock that can be expended for rerolls and a focus. Additionally, evades are ignored. If there is any way to guarantee success with them-- it is even realistically possible to pop two ships in the salvo.

 

You need to spend the target lock to fire a missile, unless the Homing Missile has a special rule attached to it.  As such, you won't be able to reroll the blanks, just spend the focus.  I've found that without being able to reroll or turn the blanks (or just wedge being wedge), missiles tend to only cause light damage.  



#11 NewAgeChaos

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:17 AM

If you read the text on the Homing Missile it explicitely says "Attack (Target Lock): Discard this card to perform this attack" rather than what is on all other missiles that say "Attack (Target Lock): Spend your Target Lock and Discard this card to perform this attack". You need to have a Target Lock on your target of choice but you do not spend it unless you choose to.



#12 magadizer

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 06:18 AM

NewAgeChaos said:

The reason I am going with the two homing missiles instead of two cheaper ones and a proton is because the Homing Missiles/Push the Limit combo allows me to, potentially, fire them with both a target lock that can be expended for rerolls and a focus. Additionally, evades are ignored. If there is any way to guarantee success with them-- it is even realistically possible to pop two ships in the salvo.

 

I think this is a much more solid list, and more workable from every perspective.

Even after they shoot the missiles, push the limit will make them have either a bit more offense or defense or maneuverability to be a valuable part of your squad.

Pilot skill is definitely unimportant in this type of list, I think.


Be seeing you.

#13 Endgame124

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 06:25 AM

NewAgeChaos said:

If you read the text on the Homing Missile it explicitely says "Attack (Target Lock): Discard this card to perform this attack" rather than what is on all other missiles that say "Attack (Target Lock): Spend your Target Lock and Discard this card to perform this attack". You need to have a Target Lock on your target of choice but you do not spend it unless you choose to.

I didn't make it to any Kessle run events and haven't seen anyone with ships from the events, so I haven't seen the cards.  Not having to spend the target lock is a pretty big deal, and I can see how that would make a big difference.  If the target doesn't have an evade token on it, concussion missiles are still probably better, but this really boosts homing missiles.



#14 NewAgeChaos

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:29 AM

Endgame124 said:

NewAgeChaos said:

 

If you read the text on the Homing Missile it explicitely says "Attack (Target Lock): Discard this card to perform this attack" rather than what is on all other missiles that say "Attack (Target Lock): Spend your Target Lock and Discard this card to perform this attack". You need to have a Target Lock on your target of choice but you do not spend it unless you choose to.

 

 

I didn't make it to any Kessle run events and haven't seen anyone with ships from the events, so I haven't seen the cards.  Not having to spend the target lock is a pretty big deal, and I can see how that would make a big difference.  If the target doesn't have an evade token on it, concussion missiles are still probably better, but this really boosts homing missiles.

 

I understand, was just  trying to clear it up is all, cuz without that very important detail Homing Missiles are nowhere near competitive compared to any other one use item.



#15 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 08:33 AM

If you're planning to use Green Squadron + Push the Limit, I think Concussion Missiles are a better choice than Homing Missiles. The damage distributions look very similar, and the expected number of hits differs by only 0.07 (3.68 for Concussion, 3.75 for Homing). Basically you'll never be able to tell the difference in play. 

The Homing Missiles have the advantage of preventing your opponent from spending Evade tokens, but I'm not sure that's worth the extra build point.

So I would run Green Squad + PtL + Concussion Missiles if that's where you're leaning, and use the extra points to beef up the Gold Squad pilots with generic astromechs. 

***

An alternate idea, though, might help round out a possible problem with the list. In my experience ships with low pilot skill sometimes have trouble with missiles and torpedoes, because they have to have a Target Lock on an enemy ship--and getting a Target Lock on a ship that moves after you do can sometimes be a pain. (For instance, Vader is just out of range when the Greens move, and by the next combat round he's at Range 1 and/or out of their firing arc.)

One solution to that problem would be to use Deadeye + Homing Missiles. That way your A-wings can target any ship that's within range when they fire, rather than when they end their movement--and you still have four dice with Focus. It is a step down from the Push the Limit combos, and you also don't benefit from having Push the Limit after the missiles are away, which is a shame because it's a nice way to wring a little bit of extra offense out of the A-wing. But it's an option.



#16 NewAgeChaos

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:08 AM

Vorpal Sword said:

If you're planning to use Green Squadron + Push the Limit, I think Concussion Missiles are a better choice than Homing Missiles. The damage distributions look very similar, and the expected number of hits differs by only 0.07 (3.68 for Concussion, 3.75 for Homing). Basically you'll never be able to tell the difference in play. 

The Homing Missiles have the advantage of preventing your opponent from spending Evade tokens, but I'm not sure that's worth the extra build point.

So I would run Green Squad + PtL + Concussion Missiles if that's where you're leaning, and use the extra points to beef up the Gold Squad pilots with generic astromechs. 

***

An alternate idea, though, might help round out a possible problem with the list. In my experience ships with low pilot skill sometimes have trouble with missiles and torpedoes, because they have to have a Target Lock on an enemy ship--and getting a Target Lock on a ship that moves after you do can sometimes be a pain. (For instance, Vader is just out of range when the Greens move, and by the next combat round he's at Range 1 and/or out of their firing arc.)

One solution to that problem would be to use Deadeye + Homing Missiles. That way your A-wings can target any ship that's within range when they fire, rather than when they end their movement--and you still have four dice with Focus. It is a step down from the Push the Limit combos, and you also don't benefit from having Push the Limit after the missiles are away, which is a shame because it's a nice way to wring a little bit of extra offense out of the A-wing. But it's an option.

 

I definitely understand what you are getting at with low PS causing more than a few issues when it comes to firing off missiles. By the same token, I feel that A-Wings can mitigate that due to Boost and their great maneuver dial, which could-- in theory-- allow them to get a TL on the first pass then turn about and fire off missiles at range 2 on a second go.



#17 ScottieATF

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:51 AM

Endgame124 said:

 

ScottieATF said:

 

I don't think dropping the missles is even a real option.  You just can't deal enough damage without them.

I think you are better off dropping the Grey to Gold and switching Vet. Instincts for Push the Limit.  That way you are getting the most from that intial salvo that you can.  I think the marginal increase in skill is a waste of points and an upgrade slot.

 

 

How many times have you fired a Proton Torp and missed a tie entirely?  Homing missiles will at least let you ignore evade tokens, and the concussion missile will save you from rolling 3 blanks on your attack, but thats still 9 points worth of missiles.  Thats over half the price of adding a prototype A-Wing for maybe getting an extra hit on the table.   I think if you really want missiles to work, you want to run Horton, Wedge, and an A-Wing, and even then I'm not 100% sold on the missile on the A-Wing.  

 

 

The answer is once, because I don't put ordanance in positions to fail.  I put it one pilots with abilities geared to it, hedge my bets with a Gunner, or upgrades such as Push the Limit.

The OP is asking for opinions on his intial two Y-Wing two A-wing build.  This is not a thread discussing the merit of missiles or how to build the best squad ever.  He gave a general template to work in and that what we are attempting to do.  We are not talking about making missiles work we are talking about how to make his squad template functional.

 



#18 ScottieATF

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:56 AM

Vorpal Sword said:

If you're planning to use Green Squadron + Push the Limit, I think Concussion Missiles are a better choice than Homing Missiles. The damage distributions look very similar, and the expected number of hits differs by only 0.07 (3.68 for Concussion, 3.75 for Homing). Basically you'll never be able to tell the difference in play. 

The Homing Missiles have the advantage of preventing your opponent from spending Evade tokens, but I'm not sure that's worth the extra build point.

So I would run Green Squad + PtL + Concussion Missiles if that's where you're leaning, and use the extra points to beef up the Gold Squad pilots with generic astromechs. 

***

An alternate idea, though, might help round out a possible problem with the list. In my experience ships with low pilot skill sometimes have trouble with missiles and torpedoes, because they have to have a Target Lock on an enemy ship--and getting a Target Lock on a ship that moves after you do can sometimes be a pain. (For instance, Vader is just out of range when the Greens move, and by the next combat round he's at Range 1 and/or out of their firing arc.)

One solution to that problem would be to use Deadeye + Homing Missiles. That way your A-wings can target any ship that's within range when they fire, rather than when they end their movement--and you still have four dice with Focus. It is a step down from the Push the Limit combos, and you also don't benefit from having Push the Limit after the missiles are away, which is a shame because it's a nice way to wring a little bit of extra offense out of the A-wing. But it's an option.

The generic base ships are still very attractive buys in both factions.  I don't think the Green Squadron pilot will be left wanting for at least a few ships tha will be forced to move before it.  Yes it puts Vader out of the targeting window, but you want to go with the low hanging fruit anyway. not the guy with shields.



#19 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:49 AM

ScottieATF said:

The generic base ships are still very attractive buys in both factions.  I don't think the Green Squadron pilot will be left wanting for at least a few ships tha will be forced to move before it.  Yes it puts Vader out of the targeting window, but you want to go with the low hanging fruit anyway. not the guy with shields.

I agree that in many cases you'll want to use those missiles to smoke an Alpha Squadron Pilot or two. In conjuction with the extra tactical flexibility of Push the limit, that's why I think PtL + Concussion missiles is a good option for this kind of squad. (Not incidentally, one of the squads I want to test when I have my hands on Wave 2 is 3x Green + PtL + Concussion and 1 Rookie Pilot + R2 Astromech.) 

What concerns me, though, is that a lot of people are talking about smaller squads with generally higher pilot skills in Wave 2. In that environment I can see an argument for Deadeye + Homing Missiles: not only is it slightly cheaper, but it provides you with a great deal of tactical flexibility. If Vader is the only ship you can target, then shoot him--two attacks with 4 dice and Focus is a nice way to soften him up even if you're unlikely to take him all the way out.

Plus there's value in the threat of a missile that could target anybody, compared to a missile whose destination is known to both players early in the maneuver phase--but that's verging on an even more theoretical conversation.



#20 Endgame124

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:45 AM

ScottieATF said:

The answer is once, because I don't put ordanance in positions to fail.  I put it one pilots with abilities geared to it, hedge my bets with a Gunner, or upgrades such as Push the Limit.

The OP is asking for opinions on his intial two Y-Wing two A-wing build.  This is not a thread discussing the merit of missiles or how to build the best squad ever.  He gave a general template to work in and that what we are attempting to do.  We are not talking about making missiles work we are talking about how to make his squad template functional.

Very nice of you to reiterate my point - you want missiles with Wedge and Horton, others, maybe not so much.  Homing missiles do have the extra attraction if you don't have to spend the target lock, which will make the more reliable than a standard torp, but I still wouldn't bet on more than one point of damage getting through. 2 is probably a safe bet if you have PtL to add a focus to the roll as well.  

regarding your second point, I answered regarding his list, and stuck with the theme.  The first suggestion was 2 Y-Wings and 2 A-Wings and 2 missiles.  The second list still uses 2 Ys and 2 As, but traded the fire once missiles for higher durability.  I'm following his template quite well, thank you.






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