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Counterspell against City Enchantress/Imp etc


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#1 FelixP

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:52 PM

Hi,

I have been playing recently Talisman main game with my 8 y.o daughter. She played Prophetess and was unlucky enough to get 1 twice (using fate) at City  Enchantress. She had a Counterspell spell and without hesitation she said she used that spell to counteract changing to a toad by the Enchantress. Well, I got stuck - I have been playing Talisman for ages (15+ years), but never came to this point that someone is using that spell against 3rd party character. Initially, I said "no way" but she convinced me that Enchantress must be using a sort of magic (a spell?) to turn one into a toad. So, if you think that that way actually the Counterspell can be a powerful spell in duel games against strength-based characters’ hardly able to use craft (e.g. Troll) as it usually turns to be useless .

Later on she used another Counterspell against Imp to avoid teleportation to the place she did not want to.

Can someone make a comment on that, please? It makes some sense to me , but is it in line with all the rules? (a side note: we play only base game, no expansions)/

Brgds.

Felix



#2 Dam

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:53 PM

Those might be "spells", but they aren't Spells as the game sees it. Counterspell only works against cards with the keyword Spell on them (and Command Spell).


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#3 FelixP

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:12 AM

Dam said:

Those might be "spells", but they aren't Spells as the game sees it. Counterspell only works against cards with the keyword Spell on them (and Command Spell).

That was may understanding as well, until my kid opened my eyes for other possibilities. Basically, it is not written on the card which spells or Spells can be counteracted however I admit, it is capitalized (also in Polish translation version which we play), so it may be interpreted as Spell cards only but I still need some solid proof to, to … counterspell it ;)



#4 EvilEdwin

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:31 AM

It would be ridiculous to list all of the spells on the Counterspell card that it affects. That be be the tinniest writing in existence!

Spell cards are the only thing in Talisman that counts as Spells in this instance, except the Command Spell. No matter how thematically it may make sense to be able to use Counterspell against the Enchantress, in Talisman that's not how it works.

To reitterate you can only use Counterspell against Spells cast by other players, not against anything the board presents.



#5 Dam

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:08 AM

EvilEdwin said:

To reitterate you can only use Counterspell against Spells cast by other players, not against anything the board presents.

Well, if you want to spell-cycle, you can Counterspell one of your own spells.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#6 FelixP

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:59 PM

EvilEdwin said:

It would be ridiculous to list all of the spells on the Counterspell card that it affects. That be be the tinniest writing in existence!

Totally agree. But adding a remark like "only against a Spell cast by other player" on the Counterspell card would clear out the picture. Lack of this remark leaves rooms for interpretation and I am just wondering if it has been done intentionally by the game makers.



#7 EvilEdwin

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:39 PM

There is no room for interpretation. Spells are the only cards with the keyword "Spell" written on them. To apply that keyword to anything else is to use artistic licence or just plain rule twisting. The Enchantress doesn't "cast" a spell on you to turn you into a toad, she just turns you into one. No mention of the word spell at all. Of course thematically, or via story telling, she would use some form of magic, but as part of the rules of Talisman that's irrelevant, it's not a spell in any way, shape or form. Only spell cards are spells, to try to imply any other effect is a spell is just being pedantic. Sorry but that's the way the game is,



#8 0beron

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 03:05 PM

EvilEdwin said:

There is no room for interpretation. Spells are the only cards with the keyword "Spell" written on them. To apply that keyword to anything else is to use artistic licence or just plain rule twisting. The Enchantress doesn't "cast" a spell on you to turn you into a toad, she just turns you into one. No mention of the word spell at all. Of course thematically, or via story telling, she would use some form of magic, but as part of the rules of Talisman that's irrelevant, it's not a spell in any way, shape or form. Only spell cards are spells, to try to imply any other effect is a spell is just being pedantic. Sorry but that's the way the game is,

Another way of looking at this is to consider *the Warlock/Cave*.  ONce your quest is realized, you are Teleported directly back to the Cave. Well obviously some spell or mechanism did this, but it is not expressly worded on the space. It is a direct consequence of taking and completing a quest.

The Enchantress' turning you into a toad is the direct consequence of your die roll.

  {Having said this, if I were to play with my 7 year old Granddaughter, I *would* let her counterspell being turned into a toad… 'cuz I'm Grampa!}



#9 Lord Kalten

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:38 AM

I humbly disagree.  All spells cast by characters on the board spaces can be treated as spells.

Otherwise you'll have a problem in the future if one of the board spaces has a character that casts the Command Spell.  You could then argue it both ways.

So if the Enchantress casts a spell, you can counter it.  The reason why the Entrantress cast a spell is because this is implied.  One can argue the semantics of enchantments, wizardry, tricks etc, but its all the same.  The only other conclusion is that she retrieved an advanced metamophosis machine from the future, but let's stay in the realms of fantasy.


 



#10 Dam

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:25 AM

Lord Kalten said:

I humbly disagree.  All spells cast by characters on the board spaces can be treated as spells.

With this interpretation, you'll have a bigger quagmire and sooner. Namely, where do you draw the line? Does the space/effect have to use the word "spell" or can you for example Counterspell Mephistopheles (if good or neutral, turns you to evil)? What about losing to the Crone in psychic combat, she turns you into a Toad, Counterspell? Cancel Rod of Ruin? You'll quickly get bogged down into never-ending arguments, especially from rules lawyers if you go that route. Personally, avoiding these kinds of pitfalls is one of the key reason I prefer RAW, meaning only Spell cards count as spells.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#11 talismanamsilat

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 05:10 AM

Lord Kalten said:

I humbly disagree.  All spells cast by characters on the board spaces can be treated as spells.

Oh dear. You must be a newbie lol

Ell.






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