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The Grim Reaper & the Dragon Overlay board


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#1 sfouts

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:55 AM

Please solve a rules debate we ran into last night, regarding the Grim Reaper & the Dragon overlay board.

The rules for the Grim Reaper state "The Grim Reaper will not cross the Portal of Power, as he is already present in the Inner Region."  We're assuming this is due to the Dice with Death space.

If the Dragon overlay board is used, the Dice with Death space is no longer present.  Since the condition that prevents the Grim Reaper from entering the Inner Region is no longer applicable, there is no reason why the Grim Reaper shouldn't be allowed to enter the Inner Region, correct?

Thanks!



#2 The_Warlock

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:35 AM

sfouts said:

Please solve a rules debate we ran into last night, regarding the Grim Reaper & the Dragon overlay board.

The rules for the Grim Reaper state "The Grim Reaper will not cross the Portal of Power, as he is already present in the Inner Region."  We're assuming this is due to the Dice with Death space.

If the Dragon overlay board is used, the Dice with Death space is no longer present.  Since the condition that prevents the Grim Reaper from entering the Inner Region is no longer applicable, there is no reason why the Grim Reaper shouldn't be allowed to enter the Inner Region, correct?

Oh my, people hanging on every single word written about Talisman seem to have no end. Words shall be analyzed discussion is about rules, but here you have been talking about flavour text

The Grim Reaper cannot cross the Portal of Power for a whole bunch of good reasons, the less important one being his picture on the Dice with Death space!



#3 talismanamsilat

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:02 AM

Go The Warlock! lol

Ell.



#4 EvilEdwin

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:35 AM

Of all the games I've played over the years Talisman does seem to produce the most bizzare rules interpretations! As well as the most polarisation amongst players! I know certainly from my own games that players will cling to a single word as evidence for a rule being used in an entirely counterintuitive way!



#5 sfouts

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:30 AM

It seemed like a valid question to me.  The only reference I've seen regarding the Grim Reaper & the Inner Portal is the conditional rule listed in the The Grim Reaper rules insert.  If the Inner Region has a bunch of dragons running about instead of the Grim Reaper, one would suspect that the Grim Reaper's presence isn't infinte, as the rules insert states.

I'm normally not one for house rules (house rules = not following the printed rules = cheating), but it brought a lot of joy to the 5 of us when we sent the Grim Reaper up to the 6th player who was cruising through the Dragon Tower, courtesy of "There has been a mistake!".  reir



#6 The_Warlock

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:07 AM

sfouts said:

It seemed like a valid question to me.  The only reference I've seen regarding the Grim Reaper & the Inner Portal is the conditional rule listed in the The Grim Reaper rules insert.  If the Inner Region has a bunch of dragons running about instead of the Grim Reaper, one would suspect that the Grim Reaper's presence isn't infinte, as the rules insert states.

What actually made me burst out like that is that I had just answered to another question, where someone was hanging on a part of a sentence and completely forgot the rest. That was the Wand

Wand

You may always have at least 1 Spell if your Craft allows (gain a Spell each time you cast your last Spell).

The question was something like  "if I lose a Spell without casting it, is it right that I get no Spell?" That's reading only what's in brackets and ignoring the rest.

In your question,  "The Grim Reaper will not cross the Portal of Power, as he is already present in the Inner Region." If the explaination for the rule decades because the Reaper's portrait is covered under an expansion board, it's not legitimate to let the rule decade. He will never walk in the Inner Region by crossing the Portal and won't teleport there too.

Tthe Grim Reaper rulesheet is full of flavour text and is really funny to read. Like this "The player who moved the Reaper must then point at the chosen character and say – as eerily as possible – “You!”

But I admit that if this leads to misinterpretation, it's better to lay down rules spoiled of any ornament. cangrejo

sfouts said:

I'm normally not one for house rules (house rules = not following the printed rules = cheating), but it brought a lot of joy to the 5 of us when we sent the Grim Reaper up to the 6th player who was cruising through the Dragon Tower, courtesy of "There has been a mistake!".  reir

I know what you're talking about, that's when spirits are high and everybody laughs at the others' misery. Unfortunately I really dislike the feeling when you realize that you did something wrong, and I do the possible to avoid mistakes.

By the way, how did you move the Reaper from there on? Did he draw Dragon cards?



#7 0beron

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:38 AM

While I more or less agree with The_Warlock, Death is already present, etc.

 

I would like to know what the "bunch" of other reasons are.



#8 The_Warlock

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:02 PM

0beron said:

 

While I more or less agree with The_Warlock, Death is already present, etc.

I would like to know what the "bunch" of other reasons are.

 

 

Some things in games are limited, because with no limits things usually get out of control.

Basic mechanic of the Reaper is: when you roll a 1 for your move, you may move the Reaper by rolling 1 die at the end of your turn.

In the Inner Region, you don't roll a die for your move. With Dragon Tower, things get even more complicated because movement is increased by defeated Enemies and happens at the end of the turn.

Why should the Reaper figure not be allowed in the Inner Region?

1) How would you move the Reaper in the Inner Region? Will you move it like characters? Will you roll the die regardless of normal movement rules? Why should the Reaper break normal movement rules in the Inner Region while he doesn't in any other Region?

2) Characters in the Inner Region don't roll a die for movement and can't move the Reaper away from them. Is it fair that characters outside the Inner Region can move the Reaper to characters in the Inner Region, and not viceversa?

3) What if the Reaper comes to the Crown of Command? Does he stay on the space and automatically encounter characters every turn? Or every time a character rolls a 1 for his move? If he moves one space per turn and he may leave the Crown at will, he could be moved back and forth and land repeatedly on a character on the Crown? If he rolls the die, does he stop on the Crown and may not move further?

4) What if a character rolls a 6 on the Reaper chart in the Inner Region? May he teleport to the Crown?

5) In the Dragon Tower, does the Reaper move one space per turn, roll the die regardless of any movement rule, or does he draw Dragon cards?

Of course there's a house rule solution to all of these questions. If you bother to find it out, you'll be fine with your game.

I play with 100% Rules As Written, not because I like every rule, but just to have minimum rule debate during play. The Reaper Rulesheet was written in a literary form, but I think it's quite clear in saying that Reaper in the Inner Region should not be allowed. Above there's a bunch of reasons, you evaluate if they're good or not.



#9 0beron

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:51 AM

The_Warlock said:

0beron said:

 

While I more or less agree with The_Warlock, Death is already present, etc.

I would like to know what the "bunch" of other reasons are.

 

 

Some things in games are limited, because with no limits things usually get out of control.

Basic mechanic of the Reaper is: when you roll a 1 for your move, you may move the Reaper by rolling 1 die at the end of your turn.

In the Inner Region, you don't roll a die for your move. With Dragon Tower, things get even more complicated because movement is increased by defeated Enemies and happens at the end of the turn.

Why should the Reaper figure not be allowed in the Inner Region?

1) How would you move the Reaper in the Inner Region? Will you move it like characters? Will you roll the die regardless of normal movement rules? Why should the Reaper break normal movement rules in the Inner Region while he doesn't in any other Region?

2) Characters in the Inner Region don't roll a die for movement and can't move the Reaper away from them. Is it fair that characters outside the Inner Region can move the Reaper to characters in the Inner Region, and not viceversa?

3) What if the Reaper comes to the Crown of Command? Does he stay on the space and automatically encounter characters every turn? Or every time a character rolls a 1 for his move? If he moves one space per turn and he may leave the Crown at will, he could be moved back and forth and land repeatedly on a character on the Crown? If he rolls the die, does he stop on the Crown and may not move further?

4) What if a character rolls a 6 on the Reaper chart in the Inner Region? May he teleport to the Crown?

5) In the Dragon Tower, does the Reaper move one space per turn, roll the die regardless of any movement rule, or does he draw Dragon cards?

Of course there's a house rule solution to all of these questions. If you bother to find it out, you'll be fine with your game.

I play with 100% Rules As Written, not because I like every rule, but just to have minimum rule debate during play. The Reaper Rulesheet was written in a literary form, but I think it's quite clear in saying that Reaper in the Inner Region should not be allowed. Above there's a bunch of reasons, you evaluate if they're good or not.

You have written a very intelligent and articulate response. Thank you. I agree with you as mentioned, just needed to hear these astoundingly clear reasons.



#10 Lord Kalten

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:45 AM

The_Warlock said:

Wand

You may always have at least 1 Spell if your Craft allows (gain a Spell each time you cast your last Spell).

The question was something like  "if I lose a Spell without casting it, is it right that I get no Spell?" That's reading only what's in brackets and ignoring the rest.

 


That was me.  And you are wrong about this.  The reason I asked about it is because of the wording of the main text:

"You may always have at least 1 Spell if your Craft allows (gain a Spell each time you cast your last Spell)."

Why does the word *may* appear in that particular sentence causing ambiguity - it does not appear on other cards.

It could have simply stated:
"You always have at least 1 Spell if your Craft allows (gain a Spell each time you cast your last Spell)."

or even better:
"You always have at least 1 Spell if your Craft allows (gain a Spell when you have no more spells if your Craft allows)."

The *may* part of it means that it is not mandatory, i.e. even if your Craft allows, you *may* have a spell.



#11 The_Warlock

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 06:16 AM

Lord Kalten said:

The_Warlock said:

 

Wand

You may always have at least 1 Spell if your Craft allows (gain a Spell each time you cast your last Spell).

The question was something like  "if I lose a Spell without casting it, is it right that I get no Spell?" That's reading only what's in brackets and ignoring the rest.


That was me.  And you are wrong about this.  The reason I asked about it is because of the wording of the main text:

"You may always have at least 1 Spell if your Craft allows (gain a Spell each time you cast your last Spell)."

Why does the word *may* appear in that particular sentence causing ambiguity - it does not appear on other cards.

It could have simply stated:
"You always have at least 1 Spell if your Craft allows (gain a Spell each time you cast your last Spell)."

or even better:
"You always have at least 1 Spell if your Craft allows (gain a Spell when you have no more spells if your Craft allows)."

The *may* part of it means that it is not mandatory, i.e. even if your Craft allows, you *may* have a spell.

I'm wrong in using your question as an example in another thread, as you're in answering here and not in your thread, if you were not satisfied by the explaination received there.

Your concerns about the use of the word "may" in this case sound strange to me, but I'm not a native English speaker, so I should probably give up and let others speculate, if they have time and will. But I've always thought that a non-mandatory effect that gives you a bonus can be either accepted or refused. "May" implies that you choose whether to gain a Spell or not.

Would you refuse a Spell you "may" have? Of course you may, if it suits your style of play. I didn't read your previous question this way.

However, the Wand is a card from the Talisamn base set and many of those cards have different texts from the most recent ones. Just try not to see problems where they have never been.






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