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#1 venkelos

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:52 PM

Numerous fluff in the mass of 40K has us get new groups, even new regiments, that started out as two or more existing regiments, who, over the long, merciless span of the war, have been ground down, suffered significant casualties, and been without similar reinforcement. In the end, the two groups might say to hell with it, and team up, allowing a group that is both Cadian and Catechan, or Tallarn and Elysian. While the regiment building chapter is actually rather simple, and I appreciate it, I am wondering how my fanfic regiment, the 1st Lokarin, should be handled. In their story, they start out as a force of Cadians, sent in to assist a force of Elysians, in handling some problem. Numerous things happen, causing the Cadians to have to assist, but not necessarily in their normal way; their heavies never show up, or much later, and so the Cadians have to learn to work more with less bulk, and then the tanks DO finally arrive, and the group is reinforced. When everything is done, they have a composite force, called the 1st Lokarin, after they are sent to that system, for a mission, that allows them to hold a position, and remove obstacles, while maintaining fast, agile scouts, in the form of the Elysians, who can do what they do, but then still withdraw to fortified Cadian killzones, and regroup, while the Cadians obliterate the depleted pursuers, and the day is won.

The simplest thing, of course, would be to just say, "if you are 1st Lokarin, either build as Cadian, or build as Elysian, and SAY you are 1st Lokarin, which I would like fine, but I'm not sure if that would work, or if I would have to try to fangle up a build that is part-Cadian, part-Elysian, and use the rules in the chapter. They do have many things in common, but a few key differences, so I thought I'd ask. Much of the game seems like it could run like Deathwatch, with a DW kill-team comprised of a Blood Angel, an Ultrmarine, a Raven Guard, and a Storm Warden, each their own Chapter, but belonging to the same group, but I don't know if Only War expects you to more conform to "the unit you are in is all Catechans, now build your unique character from there", or if the many, beleagured fronts all comprise numerous regiments, and each Player team can consist of Janissaries, Cadians, and Vostroyans, who have been assembled due to casualties, plus complimentary skill sets. If you can say "the 1st Lokarin is on the field", and it comprises Cadians and Elysians, and that works, hazaah, but if they have to have "1st Lokarin regiment rules" not as good for me.

As an aside, the planet in my story where this regiment is active, Titan's Rest, in the Lokarin System, is a normally uninhabited, heavily forested world, with a single valuable resource, and a large number of recent-arrival Orks. What sort of designation might such a planet receive? It could support life, but just doesn't, on a people-level (there are primitive animals, like any forest) and has one Human-built fortress, along with an undetermined infestation of Orks. Were I to build the 1st Lokarin as a regiment, what type of world would Titan's Rest be considered? Thanks.



#2 DontEatRawHagis

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:01 PM

venkelos said:

When everything is done, they have a composite force, called the 1st Lokarin, after they are sent to that system, for a mission, that allows them to hold a position, and remove obstacles, while maintaining fast, agile scouts, in the form of the Elysians, who can do what they do, but then still withdraw to fortified Cadian killzones, and regroup, while the Cadians obliterate the depleted pursuers, and the day is won.

 

The simplest thing, of course, would be to just say, "if you are 1st Lokarin, either build as Cadian, or build as Elysian, and SAY you are 1st Lokarin, which I would like fine, but I'm not sure if that would work, or if I would have to try to fangle up a build that is part-Cadian, part-Elysian, and use the rules in the chapter. They do have many things in common, but a few key differences, so I thought I'd ask. Much of the game seems like it could run like Deathwatch, with a DW kill-team comprised of a Blood Angel, an Ultrmarine, a Raven Guard, and a Storm Warden, each their own Chapter, but belonging to the same group, but I don't know if Only War expects you to more conform to "the unit you are in is all Catechans, now build your unique character from there", or if the many, beleagured fronts all comprise numerous regiments, and each Player team can consist of Janissaries, Cadians, and Vostroyans, who have been assembled due to casualties, plus complimentary skill sets. If you can say "the 1st Lokarin is on the field", and it comprises Cadians and Elysians, and that works, hazaah, but if they have to have "1st Lokarin regiment rules" not as good for me.

As an aside, the planet in my story where this regiment is active, Titan's Rest, in the Lokarin System, is a normally uninhabited, heavily forested world, with a single valuable resource, and a large number of recent-arrival Orks. What sort of designation might such a planet receive? It could support life, but just doesn't, on a people-level (there are primitive animals, like any forest) and has one Human-built fortress, along with an undetermined infestation of Orks. Were I to build the 1st Lokarin as a regiment, what type of world would Titan's Rest be considered? Thanks.

 

To answer the first question I see two possible options, All in all it comes down to player prefrence, not GM preference, would they rather multiple choice or forced to one battle doctrine?

To answer the second question:

  • Death World - It is a deadly planet with only one major human settlement, and is covered in forests with(I assume) Deadly Animals
  • Feral World - If the humans on it are very primitave. 


#3 whoseyes

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:03 PM

In my game the players have a "split squad": 6 men are from a mechanised regiment and operate from a Chimera and 4 other men are from a light infantry regiment and operate guerrilla/scout-way. They combine their forces to achieve quite interesting things, and I had little trouble with this situation (we created first the two regiments separetedly and then the characters from each regiment).

Now they are in the middle of a campaign, and I don't really know how this can evolve long-term: maybe both regiments will be combined because of casualties, or we'll see.

On you second question, bear in mind that during character creation the world of origin of the regiment matters because is where the soldiers where born, raised, trained and so on. In the example that you gave us, your regiment was raised half at Cadia (fortress) and half at Elysua (imperial world). The world where they are stablished now doesn't matter because, as you said, there's no civilization there and they cannot recruit natives to join them… Of course, if your mixed regiment has been in that new planet for decades, it would matter… but where are they getting "fresh" troopers from?



#4 AtoMaki

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:55 PM

This is what the Imperial Guard Codex says:

"Should a regiment survive a campagin it is unlikely it wil lreturn to its home world, moving instead from one warzone to another. As casualties reduce the overall strength of fighting forces, regiments are often amalgamated together so that united, they can continue to wage the Emperor's wars. Where possible, two hal-strength regiments from the same home world will combine, but it is not uncommon for two disparate cultures to find themselves borthers in arms. Manny commanders declare that the reduced efficiency of these combined regiments makes them barely worth their rations; infighting and mistrust hampering their battlefield effectiveness. Other commanders are interested only in the number of men-at-arms that can be fielded, their successful integration as fighting units a secondary concern."

 

"with few exceptions, regimetns are not reinforced with troops from their own home worlds. Instead, under-strength formations are merged to form composite regiments. Where possible, the formations joined are from the same home world, as was the case when the 12th and 78th Cadian were merged after the Fall of Ice Hive Magnox, forming the 12th/78th Cadian. Sometimes, however, two very different regiments are combined, such as when the 182nd Catachan was merged with the 90th Elysian. As this took place on the Departmento Munitorium world of Prosan, the composite regiment was designated the 314th Prosan."



#5 KommissarK

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:12 AM

Generally, I do think its a pretty neat idea, and should be reasonably simple to apply to a game at essentially any point (start of campaign could have 50/50 with the party and what their regiment is, or midgame, a new PC could be from a different regiment).

My primary concern would be the selection of non homeworld, non core doctrine regiment options. Letting the Psyker and Commissar choose to be from a regiment with Iron Disciplin (or whatever it is that gives Willpower aptitude), and the Weapons Specialist and Ratling come from a Sharpshooters regiment, so that all PCs have an overlapping aptitude, seems questionable.

If I was GMing a game where I wanted the composite regiment aspect to come up, I would run it by the players, and create the regiments myself, and offer them to the players to pick which they would prefer to come from. The reasoning being that having a choice of the two is still pretty effective.

I would probably also create a stock pattern for the now composite regiment, to represent it going forward.



#6 venkelos

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:00 AM

whoseyes said:

In my game the players have a "split squad": 6 men are from a mechanised regiment and operate from a Chimera and 4 other men are from a light infantry regiment and operate guerrilla/scout-way. They combine their forces to achieve quite interesting things, and I had little trouble with this situation (we created first the two regiments separetedly and then the characters from each regiment).

Now they are in the middle of a campaign, and I don't really know how this can evolve long-term: maybe both regiments will be combined because of casualties, or we'll see.

On you second question, bear in mind that during character creation the world of origin of the regiment matters because is where the soldiers where born, raised, trained and so on. In the example that you gave us, your regiment was raised half at Cadia (fortress) and half at Elysua (imperial world). The world where they are stablished now doesn't matter because, as you said, there's no civilization there and they cannot recruit natives to join them… Of course, if your mixed regiment has been in that new planet for decades, it would matter… but where are they getting "fresh" troopers from?

Bsically, the beginning was Cadian standing, led by General markus Krueger, got shipped in to help Elysian standing, and some poor logistics initially deprived the Cadians of the oomph needed to just win, so they and the Elysians teamed up thoroughly, with the Elysian tactics helping this Cadian team get around the lack of big guns (tanks) they were a bit more accustomed to. Over time, they lost some folks, but won the day, and were consolidated into a single regiment. This happened as a mission came up, where a planet of interest had finally become accessable, and the Guard forces under Krueger, now both Cadian and Elysian, were both small enough to easily transport, and covertly insert, and closest to the area, the Lokarin System. So, Krueger and his now 1st Lokarin were dropped on Titan's Rest, and found the ruins of an Imperial structure from a few millennia ago, when it had been an imperial property, and found the prize, a smallish Mechanicus facility, and the parts of a demolished Titan (the name of the planet, thus), but also found that, at some recent point, the surrounding thick forests had become the lair of Orks. For a short while, the Orks were oblivious, and the lack of Cadian tanks assisted this, but it couldn't last. After numerous attacks, and repellings, the remaining 1st Lokarin was reinforced by drop of more troops (not MANY, but a good number), and have enough to hold their fortress from attacks. They have some standing tanks, mostly aranged as defensive weapons for the walls, several outer rings of blockades, manned by troops and guns, and such, coupled with a nice assortment of quick-assault, guerilla-trained Veterans and Elysians, so they can prosecute their battle, without terrible losses, and hold defense of the one critical location they have, so far. Krueger has the token title of Governor-Militant, and his resident Tech-Priests are busily studying the Facility, which also allows for Krueger to keep his ammo supplies peeked, for now.

So, for now, they haven't been there long, less than two years, and the planet has no standing Human population, only forest animals and some invader Orks, but a lot more than Krueger is aware. The orks have had a lot more time on planet, and killed many of the bigger predators the world had. For Krueger's reinforcements, when he gets any, he's more in the position of a Planetary Governor, requisitioning forces to be sent in, due to the importance of his prize. A number of his reinforcements could be green, though, and have to learn under the combined training of Cadians and Elysians, thus creating a 1st Lokaring build, but probably not yet. If the Ork menace can ever be stamped out, in order to allow a civilian population, Krueger could draw from there, but it's more like the DoW games, where they are sent in to secure a dead world, because there's a diamond buried amongst the sand dunes.

KommissarK said:

Generally, I do think its a pretty neat idea, and should be reasonably simple to apply to a game at essentially any point (start of campaign could have 50/50 with the party and what their regiment is, or midgame, a new PC could be from a different regiment).

My primary concern would be the selection of non homeworld, non core doctrine regiment options. Letting the Psyker and Commissar choose to be from a regiment with Iron Disciplin (or whatever it is that gives Willpower aptitude), and the Weapons Specialist and Ratling come from a Sharpshooters regiment, so that all PCs have an overlapping aptitude, seems questionable.

If I was GMing a game where I wanted the composite regiment aspect to come up, I would run it by the players, and create the regiments myself, and offer them to the players to pick which they would prefer to come from. The reasoning being that having a choice of the two is still pretty effective.

I would probably also create a stock pattern for the now composite regiment, to represent it going forward.

Yeah, I can see where some min-maxxing could result, and would keep a tight reign, if possible, on it. As for the stock regiment, I'm not sure how best to reflect its objective-holding nature AND it's fast, hit-and-run, stealth skills. Saying they are part of the Elysian faction works, or the Cadian, but having them be good with tanks AND get a grav-chute, to be hardy, and great at stealth, that starts to go out of where I want to be, I don't know.



#7 Routa-maa

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:05 AM

Just wait for Only War: Hammer of the Emperor.

It should have more regiment creation options, how to play mixed regiments, advanced specialties and mounted combat rules. Sheesh dont you people read news.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=3782


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#8 venkelos

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:07 PM

I certainly know THAT the book is happening, but they are often so vague on WHEN the book is happening, with this site saying "anytime from tomorrow to the beginning of May", if it doesn't get delayed, and Amazon, the place I often buy stuff from, having even less of a clue. We all know how certain they were with Only War corebook's release, talking about it as still a DH suppliment till November, at least.

As is, I do plan to wait, but thought i'd inquire if anyone else had ALREADY figured something out.



#9 Routa-maa

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:49 PM

Well back to topic I would just make players make their own characters using regiment off their choice (Cadian, Catachan, etc.) and then choose Specialty and they are done. After that I might make it possible that they can make favored basic and heavy weapon acquisitions, from every regiment that has been mixed together, for Heavy/Specialist at +20 to required roll. But this is for just recently together mixed regiment, don't know how would make 10+ odd years together served regiments as they would certainly start to mix together more completly.


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#10 Kasatka

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:00 AM

Based on your fluff the planet they are garrisoned on will have nothing to do with regimento or character creation. Simply go through character creation as normal, but allow choice (either player or GM) of Cadian or Elysian for background.

However i would point out that merged regiments do not carry on operating their individual parts as they did before. Look at the gaunts ghosts. Originally from an Imperial world, when they suffer heavy casualties during a campaign and are merged with a Hive milita force, the Hivers are forced to train to their original specification as a Light Infantry force, with heavy focus on stealth and recon.


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#11 Flail-Bot

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 08:18 AM

The core book talks a bit about specialists taking on the homeworld traits of the regiments they are attached to. I think you could reasonably establish something similar. Remember, even though the Elysians are drop troops and the Cadians are … whatever, not every squad/batallion within the regiment is going to be doing drop/vehicle all the time. There are countless soldiers just doing frontline grunt work or artillery or scouting, etc. It's not unreasonable to think that the culture of one of these 2 regiments was subsumed by the other, especially in certain squads.

For example, if your players choose a drop troop doctrine, then establish the homeworld as Elysun (sp?). If they choose something more Cadiappropriate, then given them Cadia. Basically, their squad will lean one way or the other. This fiddles with the order a bit, picking a doctrine before a homeworld, but, in your case, I think it makes sense.

I would, under no circumstances, allow my players to pick different homeworlds for their characters. I think this would strongly encourage min-maxing and deplete the camaradarie that is critical to the OW experience.



#12 Face Eater

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 11:30 PM

Flail-Bot said:

The core book talks a bit about specialists taking on the homeworld traits of the regiments they are attached to. I think you could reasonably establish something similar. Remember, even though the Elysians are drop troops and the Cadians are … whatever, not every squad/batallion within the regiment is going to be doing drop/vehicle all the time. There are countless soldiers just doing frontline grunt work or artillery or scouting, etc. It's not unreasonable to think that the culture of one of these 2 regiments was subsumed by the other, especially in certain squads.

Although I think a regiment would have standard training within it, in a drop regiment they would all recieve the same basic training even if they mostly didn't act as drop troops.

That said there are plenty of times a unit (not nescesarily a squad) is drawn from different regiments. Examples:

A tank (crewed by 2 players and their comrades from an armoured regiment) with grenadiers from a line infantry or mechanised regiment (the rest of of the players and their comrades).

A sentinal from a hunter killer regiment or recon regiement (or two) attached to a mechanised, line ior light infantry regiment for support.

I think techincal the heavy weapons teams in a squad come from a seperate heavy weapon company but I think that's ausually the same regiment.

Line infantry supported by members of an abhuman regiment)

An airborne infantry regiment which is closely supported by a Valkyrie from a Naval aeronautica regiment.



#13 Kasatka

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 03:48 AM

Face Eater said:

Flail-Bot said:

 

The core book talks a bit about specialists taking on the homeworld traits of the regiments they are attached to. I think you could reasonably establish something similar. Remember, even though the Elysians are drop troops and the Cadians are … whatever, not every squad/batallion within the regiment is going to be doing drop/vehicle all the time. There are countless soldiers just doing frontline grunt work or artillery or scouting, etc. It's not unreasonable to think that the culture of one of these 2 regiments was subsumed by the other, especially in certain squads.

 

 

Although I think a regiment would have standard training within it, in a drop regiment they would all recieve the same basic training even if they mostly didn't act as drop troops.

That said there are plenty of times a unit (not nescesarily a squad) is drawn from different regiments. Examples:

A tank (crewed by 2 players and their comrades from an armoured regiment) with grenadiers from a line infantry or mechanised regiment (the rest of of the players and their comrades).

A sentinal from a hunter killer regiment or recon regiement (or two) attached to a mechanised, line ior light infantry regiment for support.

I think techincal the heavy weapons teams in a squad come from a seperate heavy weapon company but I think that's ausually the same regiment.

Line infantry supported by members of an abhuman regiment)

An airborne infantry regiment which is closely supported by a Valkyrie from a Naval aeronautica regiment.

Actually a lot of IG regiments, especially ones like grenadiers, will have permanently attached armour assets so i see it as entirely reasonable to use the same regimental attributes for both crew and infantry.

Ultimately this is a conflict of opinions - the writers and staff at FFG felt that the rules needed to be as simple as possible, both to avoid bloating of mechanics and also to keep the roleplaying friction to a minimum (you already get enough a*****e commisars and robotic techpriests causing friction as it is without issues of regimental assignment coming into things).

If people wish to house rule composite regiments then thats their call but i really don't see it working as well as a single regiment with handwaiving of attached specialists.


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#14 Face Eater

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:17 AM

Kasatka said:

 

Actually a lot of IG regiments, especially ones like grenadiers, will have permanently attached armour assets so i see it as entirely reasonable to use the same regimental attributes for both crew and infantry.

Ultimately this is a conflict of opinions - the writers and staff at FFG felt that the rules needed to be as simple as possible, both to avoid bloating of mechanics and also to keep the roleplaying friction to a minimum (you already get enough a*****e commisars and robotic techpriests causing friction as it is without issues of regimental assignment coming into things).

If people wish to house rule composite regiments then thats their call but i really don't see it working as well as a single regiment with handwaiving of attached specialists.

 

 

 

I'm sure plenty of regiments do, the Imperial Guard is the largest and most diverse fighting force the Galaxy, but there's plenty that don't and lets face it, if two of the players are lucky enough be the ones blasting the crap out the Emperors enemies with a Battle cannon I'm willing cut the guys who are riding on the outside a break and let them start with a bit more than a flak vest and a las pistol.

Don't get me wrong though I'm more than happy to let it ride as assume we are all one big happy regiment and let anyone be anything they want in the oft underestimated sake of simplicity.

If I was going to the touble of spliting it up into two regiments it would be for a special themed game and I wouldn't then expect you be slotting abhumans, psykers and stormtroopers into it willy nilly.



#15 Alekzanter

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:31 AM

To answer your question regarding the planet's designation…

You stated there is only one "resource", and I take that to mean a mineral or fossil-fuel resource, but you're also looking at a heavily forested planet, and if any of that resource could be saved as a result of the conflict you're looking at far more planetary wealth than you had first indicated. In this case, I would consider the planet a Resource/Mining World.

You could look at it from the viewpoint of one of the Crusade/conflict commanders (Lord Generals and up). Perhaps they want to take the world as a staging for R&R, and in so doing turn it into a Pleasure World (sort of a General's vacationing retreat, a break from the hectic stresses of body counting).

Because there is already a conflict in progress, it could very well begin with a designation of War World.

Much depends on how accessible the planet is (near to or far removed from the normal space lanes/routes), whether the Administratum has any plans to take control the planet once the conflict is over and perhaps colonize it with a goal toward mining its "one" resource and otherwise converting it's land masses to use as an Agri-World, etc.

If it were me (not knowing all the specifics of your campaign, the density of population within the sector/expanse, etc) I would think it (currently) a War World, but with a distinct possibility for it to be added to the Administratum rolls as an Agri-World with some minor mining interests.

That's my take, anyway.

EDIT: In the event that the "single valuable resource" has anything to do with the name of the planet, I think it's safe to say the AdMech will claim the planet as an AdMech Shrine/Forge World.

 






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