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Mauler vs Alpha


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#1 hothie

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:13 PM

For 18 points, you can have either of these 2 in your squad:

Mauler Mithel (MM) with Veteran Instincts

-or-

Alpha Squadron (AS) Pilot

 

MM will be a Skill Level 9, vs a Skill 1 AS. Which means MM will shoot before or simultaneously with your opponent's squad, whereas the AS will have to survive longer in order to attack.

And MM will get 4 dice at Range 1, but 2 dice at 2 and 3, whereas the AS will also have 4 at Range 1, but 3 dice at 2 and 3. And if MM is at Range 1 to use his ability, he will likely be at Range 1 for your opponent as well, but being Level 9 he'll get his shot off before getting attacked.

And the AS has the Boost action, where MM doesn't.

MM will maneuver last, with possibility of losing an action, where the AS will move first and can block, and the Boost action comes in quite handy for blocking.

It's an interesting conundrum, so i figured I'd toss the question out to the community and see what people think. I think I know my answer, but I want to see what others think.



#2 Duraham

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:34 PM

hothie said:

For 18 points, you can have either of these 2 in your squad:

Mauler Mithel (MM) with Veteran Instincts

-or-

Alpha Squadron (AS) Pilot

 

MM will be a Skill Level 9, vs a Skill 1 AS. Which means MM will shoot before or simultaneously with your opponent's squad, whereas the AS will have to survive longer in order to attack.

And MM will get 4 dice at Range 1, but 2 dice at 2 and 3, whereas the AS will also have 4 at Range 1, but 3 dice at 2 and 3. And if MM is at Range 1 to use his ability, he will likely be at Range 1 for your opponent as well, but being Level 9 he'll get his shot off before getting attacked.

And the AS has the Boost action, where MM doesn't.

MM will maneuver last, with possibility of losing an action, where the AS will move first and can block, and the Boost action comes in quite handy for blocking.

It's an interesting conundrum, so i figured I'd toss the question out to the community and see what people think. I think I know my answer, but I want to see what others think.

 

depends on what you want to do with your squad i guess?

 

MM:

 

+ you will most likely shoot first, being able to take out named pilots with low hp. having high PS also means you cna move into position better

+ you will be a target for most of the shots, so MM will help relieve the pressure off your other more important pieces eg. Phennr, Howlrunner etcetc

+ since MM has such a high PS, most likely your opponent would be using focus/evade instead of roll/boost. while this does mean that the shot will be more difficult to hit, at least you do get to shoot at him

- I do not think you are able to guarantee a range 1 shot for a majority of the time, so you will be stuck with 2 attack dice, which as you noted is rather ineffective against any imp ships running stealth device.

- even if you do get into range 1, it is dangerous / difficult for other supporting elements to keep up / join in, eg. Howlrunner, bodyguard TIEs (not sure if you want to count this), stuff with assault missiles on them like the Firespray or TIEadv, swarm tactics chain etc. Not so much of a problem with imperial builds i guess, but more of a playstyle issue.

- if you are running vet instincts, it becomes impossible to benefit from squad leader, so if your MM suffers any collisions and loses his actions, he's pretty much all on his own. unless you are hit with that 1 crit card.

- lack of boost action may hinder efforts at getting within range

- strange PS number (either 7 or 9) means that you most likely do not get to share the same movement timing with other imp ships, making maneuvering that little bit more difficult/irritating

- ship upgrade choices are pretty much limited to boost and shield. stealth is most likely not that good as you will be doing range 1 exchanges.

- range 1 exchanges means that most likely you will lose him at some point in time, and rather quickly too. again, this is more of a playstyle issue, but then again if your MM isnt in range 1, something is wrong with your playing

 

 

Alpha TIE/in:

+ shared PS means ease of maneuvering with other ships of the same PS, which you will nearly definitely run

+ lowest PS of 1 means you get to move first, get your actions, and block stuff. yay!

+ you get to benefit from things like squad leader etc

+ boost action already on the ship, no need for upgrades.

+ 3 atk means you are still a threat at all ranges. gives you more flexibility movement wise, and you are also able to stay in formation with other supporting elements to enjoy their benefits, eg Howlrunner, swarmchains etc

+ ship upgrade choices are limited to shield and stealth

- lack of "presence" means that shots will most likely be directed towards other ships you are running instead of this ship

- PS1 means you will most definitely be removed before you can squeeze out a shot when you are low on hp

- low PS also means that your opponent can use roll/boost to get out of your firing arc with ease.

 

both ships/other considerations:

= at 3 hp, there is still the chance of getting one-shotted, especially at range 1. for MM, shield upgrade is highly recommended I feel.

= I feel it is better if you pick the choice that is more suited with the rest of your squad; makes planning decisions easier. eg. if you are swarming in with large numbers, alpha TIE/in is better since it is of a low PS, can be used to block stuff, and generally goes well with the rest of the squad idea. Similiarly, MM works better in a squad with all high PS/named pilots because of the mindset you will have when playing him matches the squad idea. If you were to switch them around, MM will be stuck with a bunch of low PS pilots, and he cant join in the blocking fun, will be a hinderance in your movements since he will be there and you cannot move him away to have somebody else move into his current spot without losing an action, and will most likely be taken out first simply because he stands out. Alpha in a high PS squad means that you are unable to take out low PS pilots before they are able to squeeze out a shot as effectively, which translates to more damage taken by your squad. movement wise it is also rather stressful, not only do you have to consider the big picture for the rest of your squad, you also need to think about this ship that will be moving before everybody else. While it is nothing much for a single game, if you are talking prolonged periods of playing (ie. tourneys), the stress will start to hit you after your 2nd or 3rd game, and there will be a lot of confusion with your movements after a while.



#3 Duraham

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:42 PM

if you ask me, I'd go with alpha TIE/in over MM most of the time. Im already playing your idea of multiple firing arcs, in the form of setting up killzones (ie. making a circle with everybody pointing inwards), so having same PS with everybody else is rather important to me, as well as being able to benefit from squad leader.  Also, like i've mentioned, if something happens to MM like a collision, you are not able to save him with a forced roll or evade from squad leader, and if he gets into a good firing position after flying through an asteroid, again you are firing without any added help (ie. focus tokens etc)

 

actually, if you want the best of both worlds, why not get the TIE/in with the upgrade slot? I'm thinking of running 2 or 3 of those with sexpose, then have someone else come in and squad leader out a focus token for them. Even if you consider other upgrades like PTL, elusiveness and so on, the TIE/in is able to benefit more from them then MM.



#4 Herrgeist

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 03:27 PM

MM

Being able to fire first can be the difference between winning and losing. If it was just a one on one I think it would be a clear choice. 



#5 Picasso

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:23 PM

Hothie, 

I'm having the same problem.  I don't know what to do with it.  This is where I'm thinking Swarm tactics still has some use and flying the Alpha with a second squint with a higher pilot skill and swarm tactics.

However I feel like this is stupid…………  I am having luck flying ships in pairs.



#6 Torresse

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:30 PM

My oppinion is Mauler was one of the greatest pilots in wave 1, but quickly became out of dated with wave 2. You also have to remeber, the dials are the same EXCEPT the 4 kiogran turn is a 5 with the intercepter, and hard 2/straight 4 are green. the ability to kiogran at 2 different ranges are amazing when they are so different. This is one thing I havent seen anyone talk about that I would like to see (then again it is a new game and not everyone has figured out tricks)

I just typed about 6 paragraphs explaining the kiograns, and why you want to run a casle formation of any kind, but I deleted it due to selfish nature of wanting to read someone elses tactica lol… and though I feel my ideas are solid, my typing skills are not. In short I would take low initive due to the very nature of being able to kiogran either infront of a player, or behind them. If a 3kiogran if fail, there is a good chance the 4 will aswell (being that a ship will almost always have 2 different ways of crashing) how ever if a 3 kiogran will definetly fail, the 5 will most certainly succeed (ofcoarse the large ships really changes things)

IF we both have 30 ponts of play (our side kicks are both acdemy pilots) If I can 5 kiogran behind you, and make my acdemy go hard 1 to crash you if you attempt to kiogran, then it wont matter the inititive because I have in a sense just traded either a range 1 shot on your mauler while you have a  range 1 shot my acdemy pilot. Your only hope has Mauler mithil is to go straight 5 (which I will have a range 3 shot on you, while you have no shot on me (our next shots will happen at range 3 while I have an action and you dont, if you kiograned) If you crash into my Acdemy pilot, you have lost your shot and action, I have you at range 2. Im canceling the acdemy pilots out because acdemy vs acdemy will take forever to resolve.

If your playing mauler mithil, you have to get in 1 range. (which is a 2-3 manuvaer to crash) but if you should miss it and get into a 3-4 manuver, then your game is over. (however if your going straight at each other and you do get 2-3, and dont crash me, I go do a 5 kio and get you at a 4-5 (2 range)

anyone follow that logic?

Mauler mithil is out manuvered, and out gunned (at 2-3) but excells with his ability to have a higher pilot skill, and ability to take a pilot skill (I would be scared of seeing a high initive mauler get behind a lower initive pilot at range 1 if he had expose :S)


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#7 Englishpete

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:43 PM

I have to go with the Tie Int, I've been flying one and it is quite deadly. The boost action and movement dial make it lethal combined with 3 firepower.

I am, in fact, looking at running Turr with Stealth and 4 Alphas in a 3 and 2 formation.

The possibilities are awesome.


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#8 Duraham

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:50 PM

You do realize that your koiogran idea works only if your pair of fighters are going in head-on against the opponent right? Of course, you could argue that the blocking ship could do a turn in, but that still means that you will need to face the opponent straight ahead, else no collision will occur, your blocking ship will get ranged1 from the sides, and your koiograned ship now has a stress and is a little bit too far to deal any high quality shots. Then again, if that koiograned ship is a TIEin or Awing, it doesnt really suffer much from that problem of being stuck too far away with stress tokens, but it does mean that the opponent ship decides where he wants to bring the battle to. Furthermore, if your blocking ship does survive, it is now pointing in a completely wrong direction, and will need at least 2 turns to get it back into the battle with that 1 opponent ship. Either way, for imp ships, due to the lack of forward 1, the further away you can koiogran, the better. Sends you further away when you are stressed and vulnerable, and gives you a lot more room and options for your next maneuver. Otherwise, id try to aim my koiogran on top of another ship, so it will move away and empty that area by the time it is your turn, so you can koiogran without worries. That is of course if your opponent doesnt decide to drink and drive and crash something else onto that very spot

#9 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:57 PM

I think my answer is usually the Alpha. The attack mostly washes out, although its worth noting that the Interceptor is never worse than Mauler. The real difference is pilot skill versus available actions, and in piloting my one Interceptor I've found Boost to be invaluable. 

The major exception is that because offfensive power is generally going up with Wave 2, pilot skill may become slightly more important. (IMO this is also why Fel's Wrath is more valuable than he looks.) If it proves to be the case that PS1 reliably gets you taken out early, PS9 is worth the investment even if it does t come with the Interceptor's suite of upgrades over the TIE/ln. 



#10 hothie

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:10 PM

True, I failed to mention the maneuvering dials being vastly different. It's an important factor in determining which to bring.

Myself, i bring the Alpha for its increased maneuvering, boost action, and 3 attack dice. I like being able to have the extra attack dice at any range, not just at range 1. With MM, you feel the need to get him into range 1 quickly, whereas with the Alpha you can fly him more defensively if needed. It's a tough choice, to be sure, which is why I wanted to discuss it. And the differing answers proves that.

It also brings up the point that a level 1 Pilot in wave 2 can replace a level (7+2) 9 pilot from wave 1, which is telling in and of itself.

It's an interesting debate, and thanks for all of your responses.



#11 Duraham

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:41 PM

i guess it all boils down to the comparison between the TIE/ln vs the TIE/in, and that not even a high PS and MM's ability could bring the TIE/ln onto the same level as the basic TIE/in



#12 Herrgeist

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 02:19 AM

What about Alpha vs Howlrunner? Would you still pick Alpha over her ability?



#13 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 02:40 AM

Herrgeist said:

What about Alpha vs Howlrunner? Would you still pick Alpha over her ability?

That's a very different question, I think, for two reasons. The first is that Howlrunner's ability is worth almost as much as an extra attack die to every ship within 1 (rather than a conditional extra die for herself). The second, though, is that for maximum effectiveness she has to be run in formation with a relatively large group of ships, and that's a strategic consideration with a lot of impact on your playstyle.

Basically substituting Mauler with an Alpha makes a small difference in the way your squad runs; substituting Howlrunner with an Alpha changes the squad.



#14 Herrgeist

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 02:53 AM

Vorpal Sword said:

That's a very different question, I think, for two reasons. The first is that Howlrunner's ability is worth almost as much as an extra attack die to every ship within 1 (rather than a conditional extra die for herself). The second, though, is that for maximum effectiveness she has to be run in formation with a relatively large group of ships, and that's a strategic consideration with a lot of impact on your playstyle.

 

Basically substituting Mauler with an Alpha makes a small difference in the way your squad runs; substituting Howlrunner with an Alpha changes the squad.

Right, but just wanted to see if her ability was worth an attack die and superior movement found on the Alpha. I think 18 points is 18 points, you are going to get a quality TIE for that price no matter who you choose. 



#15 hothie

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 02:54 AM

 

Herrgeist said:

 

What about Alpha vs Howlrunner? Would you still pick Alpha over her ability?

 

 

After Wave 2 releases, I would run an Alpha Squadron Pilot over Howlrunner every day of the week and twice on Sunday, for exactly the reasons Vorpal Sword mentioned.

If you run Howlrunner, that means you are restricting your squad's movements in order to keep your ships within 1 of her.  It is my opinion that any squad that restricts its movements like this will more often than not get eaten alive by more maneuverable squads. If you're running 2 ships together for things like Squad leader, that's one thing. But to run your entire squad in formation like effective use of Howlrunner requires, i think most Wave 2 squads, whether they be Rebel or Imperial, will run right through your squad without much difficulty.

I think this is unfortunate, and I might play a few games with my old Worlds squad to see how it does. It sucks to relegate Howlrunner to the dustbin, but I think it's the evolution of the game. At least she can keep Maarek company.



#16 Herrgeist

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 02:59 AM

hothie said:

 At least she can keep Maarek company.

*ppppuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*animado



#17 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:16 AM

hothie said:

I think this is unfortunate, and I might play a few games with my old Worlds squad to see how it does. It sucks to relegate Howlrunner to the dustbin, but I think it's the evolution of the game. At least she can keep Maarek company.

Poor Maarek. Wave 2 has exactly what he needs: combining Push the Limit with Concussion missiles, or Marksmanship with Homing Missiles, makes him the premiere missile user on the Imperial side.

But Wave 2 also brings Interceptors, and with the 34-35 points you need to really take advantage of his pilot ability you can (almost) pick up two of them. It's hard to make the case that he's a good buy for tournament-style play.



#18 Duraham

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:10 AM

Herrgeist said:

 

What about Alpha vs Howlrunner? Would you still pick Alpha over her ability?

 

 

 

a definite yes. it is the closest thing you have to targetlock+focus for your TIEs, and there are so many new ways to help keep her around.

 

i think a common misconception is that you have to use her effect like all the time, simply because it is more efficient. You can choose to pair her off with just a couple of other ships instead of your entire squad, and she will still be useful. Even in the current wave 1, i pretty much keep her around with the entire squad for the first pass, then afterwards she's flying all around the map being useful at specific areas and stuff. even if she only passes her ability to one other TIE only, her ability is still being used, and if that helps to keep her alive for much longer, i don't see why not, after all she has already done her best for the initial pass already, which is where the added firepower really counts in any match.

 

as for Maarek, his ability is now very useful against any big ship that isnt chewie, and with things like PTL he will be a little bit more dangerous on the field. Of course, you'd rather Vader than him, but at the very least it's something.



#19 Duraham

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:16 AM

I guess for the imperial side, a better question would be would you alpha TIE/in or would you backstabber instead? without any ship upgrades, both ships offer roughly the same thing, except that backstabber has a lower cost and much higher PS in exchange for a rather situational buff to bring it up to par to the TIE/in, and i can see myself opting for either one without any particular preference for either



#20 Herrgeist

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:34 AM

Duraham said:

I guess for the imperial side, a better question would be would you alpha TIE/in or would you backstabber instead? without any ship upgrades, both ships offer roughly the same thing, except that backstabber has a lower cost and much higher PS in exchange for a rather situational buff to bring it up to par to the TIE/in, and i can see myself opting for either one without any particular preference for either

Im partial a little since my Backstabber took out Han, but I see what you are saying. Plus I think Backstabber is better than MM. 






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