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Laspack clip sizes and ammo housekeeping.


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#1 Rozen

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:56 PM

Does anyone else find the clip size for lasguns is far too large for dramatic purposes in OW?

I've run two sessions of my game and I've found the giant 60 shot clips on the Lasguns with 3 shot semi-auto burts mean that ammo conservation is pretty much unheard of and ammo-count housekeeping is a nuisance rather than something that ratchets up the tension. I keep asking players to count their shots but it seems silly when after a long session with near constant combat they'll often have only expended about 18 or so shots out of 240 in their basic kit.

I guess I was hoping for the kind of Gaunt's Ghosts' Hinzerhaus mood where ammo is rare and people are always worrying about their ammo and needing to reheat las packs and scavange to keep in kit. Anyone else finding this a problem, or coming up with creative solutions? Or am I just reading the rules wrong?



#2 Hordeoverseer

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:12 PM

I have this personal problem too, it's unlikely that players will ever need to reload a clip in one combat until combats go for 20+ rounds and that's really…really dragging it I think. At the same time, Lasguns are the most common weapon in the Imperial Guard but the least favoured by players, who tend to go for the special weapons at first excuse. Which may present an opportunity for a weapon that's concerning, like plasma or melta gun…but that's far later in the game and I personally don't want these to be common place with each squad member.

Personally, I don't know how to manage this. I want a concern on clip sizes to be ever present somehow.



#3 Ryath

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:16 PM

Most of the las gun weapons have such a large ammo clip as they can fire in different modes that use up x2 or x4 ammo per shot.  Semi Auto in Overload mode is a real ammo hog.



#4 DrNo172000

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:47 PM

If you wanted to make a house rule to limit the size just discuss it with your players.  But yes it seems the actual size for them rules wise makes for very little reloading.  Not sure if that was their intention or not when they wrote the size.



#5 Lynata

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:49 PM

I have a feeling they may have went with this number because that's how many shots a lasgun can fire in GW's Inquisitor RPG. Be lucky they did not adopt the Munitorum Manual on this one, else you'd have 150 shots per pack! ;)

But yes, if your group thinks that more reloads would better support the "military action" theme, then houserule a lower capacity. If even the officially licensed products cherrypick individual aspects for the setting's interpretation they intend to portray, then so can you.


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#6 AtoMaki

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:29 PM

I dunno, but the big clip size is like the only advantage a lasgun have. Take it away, and you will see your players scavenging enemy weapons and not ammo for their subpar lasgun. Also, if you restrict the use of enemy weapons, then everyone will take Rapid Reload and the Quick Release weapon mod, so the clip size reduction become meaningless. Because without those, the characters will simply die. Just remember that a guardsman is not a threat to anyone 8including other guardsmen) without some real firepower. And firepower needs ammo. Lots of ammo. 



#7 Frankie

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:10 AM

Variable Settings is a big reason to have the large clip sizes.

 

Secondly, have them keep track of ammo and not have it magically replenish after a scene. After one or two battles, they"ll be hoping to return to base or for a supply drop/wagon to come by. Yes, you can recharge your chargepacks by throwing them in the fire, but you damage the chargepacks and may not necessarily have the chance to charge them.



#8 Face Eater

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:26 AM

A couple of things, in many situations (all but the weakest opponants I imagine) you'll be using the overcharged setting which puts it down to 30 shots, that's only 10 rounds of shooting.

Now that is still a lot, especially if they are being efficient (which is good) and it does represent more firepower than they need in most games.

It's likely to only be lengthy battles and operations far from your lines (which an elite guard unit like the players are likely to be undertaking) that it becomes important. If you only start counting shots on those missions where you intend that to happen then the players are suddenly going to be very carefull about the ammo, to make that work you need at least make it look like you are keeping track the whole time even if on most missions you don't care.

To make ammo a bit tighter when you need to (without playing through hours of battles with spods) then start the mission with them not on full ammo or describe engagments they they aren't fully or solely involved in and the amount of ammo spent.



#9 PrimarchX

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:23 PM

This is a common situation in RPGs.  Players rarely take low-percentage shots.  The use of suppression fire and full-auto fire make ammo a bit more of an issue.



#10 Rozen

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:07 PM

Am I missing overcharging? Where are the rules for that? There's no reference in the index.



#11 MILLANDSON

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:29 PM

Rozen said:

Am I missing overcharging? Where are the rules for that? There's no reference in the index.

It's in the description of the las-weapons. "Lasgun Variable Settings".


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#12 Kiton

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:37 PM

Overload tends to be a terrible idea, turning your weapon from the most reliable indestructible thing in the galaxy [you honestly believe the Golden Throne would have lasted that long if it wasn't a giant gold-plated pile of lasguns? Of course not] into "sarge, it jammed and accidentally all the ammo again, can I get another one?"… Unless you absolutely can't harm the target otherwise, or you're facing an attrition-death a few rounds away from two less damage every hit, stay away from overload. The costs seriously outweigh the benefits.

Overcharge isn't really worth it unless you're doubling your damage with it [that is to say, targets that take 1 on a 10 rather than expending RF to take that 1, and so now take 2] or you've got a lot of spare packs, or its integral or something. Its decent enough so long as you're not worrying about remaining shots.

 

However, for all its near-uselessness on so many things across the galaxy, there's a reason Lasguns are everywhere. They're energy efficient, and can get charged off damn-near anything. Its pretty safe to assume even the Astartes motocross has at least a port compatible with las-packs somewhere so you can charge like one an hour or something. I doubt a Chimera doesn't have a handful too. Lasgun Charge Packs are the USB of the Imperium: We field them because nothing else keeps going quite like them.

Really, if you so much as empty a full clip with your lasgun in any given fight and you did NOT use overcharge or overload? Its because you're firing at something the munitorum didn't think you'd have to deal with on that mission. That's the entire POINT of lasguns as a whole: We put them everywhere because they're easy to make and make logistics easier. "too much ammo" is  their entire raison d'ètre.

Like a guy in carapace, or a space marine or Carnifex. Just keep firing though; the artillery's on the way.



#13 Rozen

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:37 PM

Thanks, that's a great help.

In our campaign we've started off with homebrew 'M32 Lasguns' which are basically M36 models with 'Unreliable' instead of 'Reliable' - part of a story of a regiment that's basically poorer and more put upon than the bluebloods around them. As such noone's properly looked at the M32 section - just the statline. Thanks!



#14 HappyDaze

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:52 PM

DrNo172000 said:

If you wanted to make a house rule to limit the size just discuss it with your players.  But yes it seems the actual size for them rules wise makes for very little reloading.  Not sure if that was their intention or not when they wrote the size.

It's not just with the lasguns though - the battle cannon on the Leman Russ only needs to be reloaded after 12 shots!


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#15 HappyDaze

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:55 PM

Rozen said:

Thanks, that's a great help.

In our campaign we've started off with homebrew 'M32 Lasguns' which are basically M36 models with 'Unreliable' instead of 'Reliable' - part of a story of a regiment that's basically poorer and more put upon than the bluebloods around them. As such noone's properly looked at the M32 section - just the statline. Thanks!

I would think that just taking Poor Craftsmanship lasguns - which simply lack Reliable - would be bad enough.


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#16 Kiton

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:39 PM

Unfortunately that is incorrect.

Once again, as there appears to be a refusal to update ranged weapon quality rules, A Poor quality lasgun does not only lose reliable. It is Unreliable.

Good quailty cancels out unreliable if it had it, but poor quality has no such wording.

Laslocks [having a single shot anyways] and Plasma Weapons are perfectly happy being of Poor quality, however.



#17 Plasmafest

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:13 PM

A small point to keep in mind with las weapon ammo is that, short of recharging, there's no way to 'top up' a used charge pack. i.e. you go through a blazing combat and use up half the pack, slot in a fresh pack then later get into another scrap; you now have 2 half-charge las packs and no way to fill one from the other. On a long patrol or the like, this could well result in the squad still having plenty of ammo, but spread out across 4 or 5 20-30 shot mags.






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