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Wave 2 Insights


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#1 hothie

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:09 AM

Keep in mind, this is all my own personal opinion. I reserve the right to be wrong about some things. And please post any insights that you have gained while playing with your wave 2 ships. But here is what I have found so far:

With wave 1, the top Rebel squad was a 4 ship build, with usually 1 top pilot (often named Wedge), and 3 level 2 pilots. For the Imperials, the top squads were 6+ TIE swarms (yes, I know your 4 ship TIE Advanced build is undefeated, but I'm speaking in general terms), and there were many varieties of successful TIE swarms.

From what I've seen on the boards, Rebel squads are tending to go in 2 directions; 3 ship X-wing builds, with high pilot skills and lots of upgrades, or 4 ship builds with A-wings with missiles. Another option is 3 ship builds with a YT, which may prove to be more effective than people think. Imperial squads are tending towards 5 ship builds, with 2 interceptors being the norm. Both factions are now getting away from lots of lower pilot skills and moving towards fewer ship builds with higher pilot skills. From what I've seen, this is where the game is moving. Not that the old squads are necessarily bad now, but these more streamlined squads are going to fare better in tournaments. I also think that more games will end before time gets called due to the lower ship counts on the board, especially in Imp vs Imp games.

With Wave 2, we now have the Boost action, which does change the game. Now a ship that was in your line of fire can boost out of it by taking the boost action. So now you need to have multiple firing acs covered, so that you can still get an attack against a ship that has boosted out of one of your ships firing arcs. Or more importantly, deter him from boosting, and make him take another, more defensive action, like focus instead. I think this is an important point that people haven't really considered as of yet, which is understandable due to the relatively few wave 2 ships that are out there. As an Imperial player, covering multiple firing arcs is difficult, because it takes away squad cohesion in favor of spreading out to cover areas. For Rebel players, the YT will solve this problem quite easily by itself.

We also now have Stealth Device. The good thing about Stealth device is that it's cheap, 3 points for an extra agility die, which can be added to any ship. The bad thing about Stealth Device is it's expensive, it only comes with the $30 Firespray, so getting 5 or more will cost you. You do get 2 of them with the Firespray, which is nice, but still, they will be pricey to obtain. Stealth Device now makes ships with a 3 agility into a 4 agility. I believe this changes the game as well, because having 2 attack dice just isn't going to cut it against 4 or more defense dice (add Range 3 through an obstacle, and you're rolling 6 defense dice, which has happened in games I've played.) You will need a ship with at least 3 attack dice to strip away Stealth device, so that your other ships with 2 attack dice can have a better chance of hitting once the Stealth Device is gone. I predict nearly every squad will have at least 1 ship with Stealth Device. My Dark Curse with Stealth Device hasn't taken a hit yet in the 5 games I've played with him.

We also now have Assault Missiles. I know there was much ballyhoo when this was announced, but I think clearer heads have prevailed. I have used Assault Missiles twice, and have failed to hit both times. I don't think this will be quite as game-changing as people originally thought. It seems that Homing Missiles are a better choice due to not having to spend your target lock to use them.

Then we have the large ships. No, there will not be anything produced that will be bigger than the YT-1300 and the Firespray, so please stop calling them medium ships. I think even if there is an Imperial shuttle produced, that it will have the same base size as the YT/Firespray. In my own experience, I haven't been able to successfully play the Firespray effectively. I've tried, believe me, but the most effective use of the Firespray is through its front firing arc at range 2-3, which usually will only happen once or maybe twice per game before it gets destroyed. To me, I'd rather use the points on other things, as the smaller ships fit my playstyle better. The YT has a 360 firing arc, which makes it a better ship than the firespray, IMO. There are many times when a firespray won't have an attack, but the YT will, and that's a big difference, especially at Range 1. The YT pilot's abilities are more squad-based, specifically Lando and Chewie with Draw Their Fire, than the Firespray pilots. And to me, this game is more about squad cohesion than one big, beefy attacker.

Oh, and I can't talk about Wave 2 without complaining about the A-wing. Eight green maneuvers is just plain broken. The ship only has 16 maneuvers, and having half of them be green is just plain wrong. A TIE fighter, TIE Advanced, Xwing, YT, and Firespray all have 4, Ywing only has 2. The Interceptor has 7, which I'm fine with reducing if we're going to reduce the Awing's. IMO, both the Awing and Interceptor should have 5 green maneuvers for balance. I'd say 2 straight, 2 banks, 3 straight, and 4 straight should be it for both the Awing and Interceptor for green maneuvers, but I didn't design this game.

That's about all I can think of for now. If I think of more I'll post them.



#2 The R5Don4 Star II

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:16 AM

That is a lot to digest Doug.  You raise some great topics of conversation and I hope this thread is a source of some great discussion rather than sinking into the abyss or devolving off on tangents.

 

I too have tried desperately to make the Firesprays work.  Success has been very sporadic.  I'm still not going to give up on them and will continue to try stuff out.  Proximity Mines are very hard to pull off, but when they do, they are amazing and a game changer.  Best success has come using them in a pair with overlapping arcs to mitigate the blind spots with a bodyguard to mitigate Crits.  I think their success will depend on the Meta.  At Range 1, with something in their Arc with Marksmanship and Gunner they crush ships.  Running alone they can be out manuevered especially by a higher skilled pilot with Boost.  Ion Cannon might be the overlooked upgrade, with all the Stressed pilots flying around.

 

The excess green on the Interceptor and A-Wing dials doesn't bother me that much.  With a 1 pt upgrade you can give Y-Wings and X-wings 8 green moves.  Do we see a lot of that? a bit, but not much.  If they had Green 3 Turns and Banks, ie an entire dial of green then, yes it would be broken.

 

I'll post more later, but those are my initial thoughts.



#3 Norsehound

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:38 AM

The firespray kind of strikes me as a support ship. If you fly with it, you won't be beefing it out with every upgrade. Give it the heavy cannon and the merecneary gunner and have it fly around shooting at things on the sidelines. The Stealth upgrades are really for the FIrespray's escorts, not the Firespray herself, so they can keep other fighters off the Firespray.

In hindsight I should have probably picked the Falcon from the Kessel run because it feels like it would fit my own playstyle better : oh well.



#4 hothie

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:40 AM

I was able to deploy a proximity mine once, then proceeded to run my Soontir Fel right into it, rolled 2 hits and a crit. Fel fell. And that was right before Wedge would have run into it instead. But that was my own fault. It did work, just on the wrong ship.

And I do agree that there will be a lot of stressed pilots running around, so the Ion Cannon is going to be a fun secondary weapon to have, but since it can only be used in the primary firing arc, that makes it a little less effective on a Firespray. It will make people reconsider not having a Ywing in their squads, though. That is one of the great things about the Ywing Ion Cannon, the 360 firing arc, as opposed to the Firesprays Ion Cannon, which can only be used in the front firing arc. There's a big difference. Plus, with the Firespray, if you're using your primary firing arc anyway, you're going to want to use a bigger weapon for more possible damage, either the Heavy Laser Cannons or your primary weapon. Four attack dice is tough to give up for 3 dice doing a max of 1 damage.



#5 The R5Don4 Star II

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:59 AM

This is the squad I actually had success with against a High Skilled 3 Ship build

 

Why So Stressed?

Kathy pounds on stressed target, to add more stress, Kras Ions them to put them out of action.  Kras gets a free reroll with the Ion.

100 points

46 points
Kath Scarlet
Marksmanship, Gunner

39 points
Krassis Trelix
Ion Cannon

15 points
Black Squadron Pilot
Draw Their Fire

 
 
 

 



#6 hothie

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:31 PM

You do raise another important point about wave 2; this set stresses stress. Consider these new pilots and upgrades:

Tycho Celchu
Soontir Fel
Kath Scarlet
Elusiveness
Daredevil (executing a red maneuver)
Push the Limit

All of these cards have something to do with stress tokens. And given the amount of times that wave 1 ships are stressed, you will definitely need to have a handy supply ready each turn. This is where the amount of green maneuvers for the Awing and the interceptor come in handy.



#7 The R5Don4 Star II

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:51 PM

I think PTL is going to be very popular, at least at first.  Ion gun seems like it is assumed to be the answer to it.



#8 Darth Lupine

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:12 PM

Having won a Firespray at the local Kessel, and then having traded it for two Interceptors I must agree with most of Hoties points. Ill get another Firespray for the rare mission, but mostly for the upgrade cards, and stick to my Interceptors, which I will not leave home without. I'm having huge success running Turr with ptl, Saber pilot wit vet instincts and two Tempest advanceds with concussion missiles.

 

 



#9 The R5Don4 Star II

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:17 PM

Darth Lupine said:

Having won a Firespray at the local Kessel, and then having traded it for two Interceptors I must agree with most of Hoties points. Ill get another Firespray for the rare mission, but mostly for the upgrade cards, and stick to my Interceptors, which I will not leave home without. I'm having huge success running Turr with ptl, Saber pilot wit vet instincts and two Tempest advanceds with concussion missiles.

 

 

 

On paper, I'm not loving anything about that squad.  What are you beating up on?  Do they have Wave 2 ships?



#10 Boomer_J

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:57 PM

hothie said:

Then we have the large ships. No, there will not be anything produced that will be bigger than the YT-1300 and the Firespray, so please stop calling them medium ships.

 

I hate to I have to except that your right on this point. Darn you for killing all my wildest dreams from coming true. :)



#11 hothie

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:46 PM

There are plenty of CR90 models and scenarios out there, but I'm not expecting anything with a larger base than what we have now coming from FFG. i would say possibilities of ships with the same base size as the YT/Firespray are Imperial Shuttle, Bwing, and Outrider, but those are topics for another thread, or 30 threads as the case may be.

On topic, Lupine mentioned Turr with PtL, which is by far my favorite combo from Wave 2. I think Biggs with R2F2 and Stealth Device will see lots of action, alongside Wedge with Expose. As I said, Dark Curse with Stealth Device hasn't taken a single hit yet in 5 games. Chewbacca with Draw Their fire will be fun, and Black Squadron pilot with Draw Their Fire is the cheapest bodyguard in the game. Tycho with Push the Limit will also be good. For that matter, Tycho will be good, as stress tokens only prevent him from taking red maneuvers. And as mentioned earlier, the Awing has 8 green maneuvers to get rid of those stress tokens. So for those of you playing against Tycho, keep in mind that while he's stressed, he won't be doing k-turns. So that will help in figuring out where he will be. Also remember that 2 turns are green for both the Awing and Interceptor, which I often take to get rid of Turr's stress token. For the Firesprays, it seems Krassis with Heavy Laser Cannon is the way to go, and for Awings, I think those who can learn how to play Arvel Crynyd well will be successful. Arvel takes a very good insight into what your opponent will do, so there will be a learning curve with Arvel for sure. And have I mentioned Stealth Device on Awings being annoyingly hard to hit?

And, the surprise of this Wave is Fel's Wrath. Yes, I'm saying it, Fel's Wrath's usefulness will be underestimated by his detractors. With the game moving to fewer pilots and higher pilot skills, Fel's Wrath will get his opportunity to get his final shot off, and with 3 attack dice, he will prove his worth.



#12 Boomer_J

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:22 PM

 

 

Sorry for going a little off topic Hothie. I saw an opportunity to poke some fun and took it. I hope you know I was joking. :(

 

hothie said:

I was able to deploy a proximity mine once, 

 

I haven’t got to play with any of wave 2 ships yet but the new mine and bomb intrigues me would love to hear more on this and its potential as a wave two upgrade to change the way we play the game.  



#13 Sodapopj

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:49 PM

I feel at first blush this wave really expands what you can do with your lists both with Rebel and Imperial. I have always been a man that liks to learn by getting in games and learning practical applications of cards rather than 'theorying' it out. As Hothie pointed out I also think we'll see smaller squad sizes, especially with imperials. With the introduction of the interceptor there is a heavy hitter in their ranks and they won't necessarily be pulled towards a spam list, but I have focused on using my new rebels rather than my new imperials. Bellow are some of my preliminary insights on the two new ships.

In my dealings with this wave. I have to say the Outer Rim Smuggler was a very pleasant surprise. I have 5 games with it in my list and it has been a force in every game. The low pilot skill allows for that big base to clog up lanes between asteriods while the 360 degree firing allows you to focus on base placement and not wory as much about facing. Weapons engineer has been a useful upgrade with only 2 attack dice the reroll is crucial and having two locks allow for you to focus and reroll in one turn. I do have to say that cluster missiles do leave me quivering in my boots when I am playing with my Outer rim smuggler.

Green Squadron pilots are the guys I keep drawing towards. With only Luke and Wedge being able to take elite pilot in the previous wave I am really keen to add this eliment to my Rebel list. I have tried squad leader on one with low pilot skill pilots and it didn't work out well because I find A-wings really need their activations. Unlike the Y-wing the A-wing feels much more finesse. Many of games I have stressed out my y-wing and not even bothered destressing them in favor of flying them into a good shooting lane, and it working out because Y-Wing can take a lot of punishment before they go down. I feel the point of the A-wing needing their action is hightened by them being reletively cheap, and fragile by Rebel standards. Having the ability to take missiles,a d them being fragile has made me swap out my Squad leader in favor of trying to find points for push the limits for that extra action. Either way I am a fan of the Green squad pilot and I think he will replace the second Y-wing in my 4 rebel build.

I also like that as a Rebel player I have access to pilot skill 1. In the previous wave I sometimes felt helpless against a Bump strategy because Imperials will always move their Academy Pilots first. I like that I have 2 options now that are pilot skill 1 and if I drop a point or two I can try to run that strategy myself. Although this might be pointless as people are seeming to be flocking towards the higher pilot skill pilots now.

As you can read my insights haven't solidified quite yet. I will play my rebels for a few more weeks and then after I get a feel for the new wave I will turn to the new Imperials.



#14 Hrathen

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 05:08 PM

The only ship I can really speak to is the YT-1300.  Since I won it at teh Kessel Run I have a three ship build as follows.:

Han Solo, w/ Luke Skywalker, and Milenium Falcon upgrades

Rookie Pilot x2 (I varry th upgrades on these usually cheap droids)

 

The Falcon only has 1 Agility, but I Take the Evade action just about every turn,  I don't need to lock on Target becasue Han Solo's ability is basically a poor man's lock on target that I can do on ever attack (not just every round), Luke Skywalker (who is basically an better and more expensive gunner) has so much sinergy with Han Solo I almost feel bad playing this list.

 

This list has yet to be beaten.  I originally played this list (with chewy) becasue I wanted to play with the whole gange that I loved.  It just turned out to be devistatingly good.

I am excited to see all the other ships.  Sorry to hear that the Firespray didn't work out as well as the YT-1300.  I am a little anoyed that I will probably end up buying two of them just to get 4 Stealth Devices.

 

I forsee the three ship YT-1300 + 2 x-wings being a pretty popular squadron.  I will definatly try changing the X-wings into A-wings to see what happens, but I don't actually forsee that being better.


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#15 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

hothie said:

For the Firesprays, it seems Krassis with Heavy Laser Cannon is the way to go…

I think there's also a solid (theoretical) case to be made for Kath Scarlet + Gunner + Marksmanship. It's not exactly cheap, but it's only 3 points more than Krassis + Cannon, and should bring a bit of control along with the firepower. It's probably the most interesting counter I've come up with for Stealthed A-wings: they either get hit and lose Stealth, or they take a pair of stress tokens and lose their action on the next round.

I have a lot of ideas for the Firespray, but most of the early feedback from people who won them has been matched yours. Hopefully there's a winning strategy out there to be found, but if all the Empire gets out of Wave 2 is the Interceptor I think the metagame will still be better off.

Something you didn't mention explicitly (although Sodapopj did, while I was composing this) is the expanded opportunities for secondary weapons on Rebel squads. I saw multiple people locally try the list with four Rookie Pilots + Proton Torpedoes, and it was too unreliable for tournament play--but Homing Missiles and Push the Limit + Concussion Missiles are much better choices, and on Green Squadron Pilots they're inexpensive to boot. In multiples I think they'll be a tough obstacle for Firespray and YT lists.

You did mention Wedge + Expose, and while I agree that it will be a popular choice but not a great one. Expose needs some expensive synergies to be good (4 naked attack dice are slightly worse than 3 with Target Lock), and the natural choice to bring Dutch and Biggs means you're looking at a fairly brittle 3-ship build.



#16 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 05:17 PM

Hrathen said:

The only ship I can really speak to is the YT-1300.  Since I won it at teh Kessel Run I have a three ship build as follows.:

Han Solo, w/ Luke Skywalker, and Milenium Falcon upgrades

Rookie Pilot x2 (I varry th upgrades on these usually cheap droids)

…This list has yet to be beaten.

I have in mind a very similar list (Han + Marksmanship + Gunner, with two escort fighters). Glad to hear it's working out well for someone.



#17 AncientAngel

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 05:22 PM

I have been debating on going with a 2 fire spray build. At the time I thought this ship had a rear facing fire arch or is that for kine placement only? 



#18 The_Brown_Bomber

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 05:23 PM

Gr8 discussion here!

i like the A-Wings alot, the threat of them with missiles is not to be ignored, i have found the trick with them is to keep them at med-long range to reduce the damage they take. I am dreaming of playing 3 in the same squad just for fun.

There are some really nice upgrades in Wave 2: stealth device, push the limit, expose, engine upgrade and veteran insticts will all see lots of play.

I think a few competitive rebel builds may opt for the Outer Rim Smuggler as an anchor ship, probably with minimal upgrades (maybe Gunner 5) to operate as a beefier Y-Wing type ship to plug away with its 360 degree firing arc.


"There will be a substantial reward for anyone who finds the Millenium Falcon. You are free to use whatever means necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegration!".

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#19 Boomer_J

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 05:31 PM

AncientAngel said:

 

I have been debating on going with a 2 fire spray build. At the time I thought this ship had a rear facing fire arch or is that for kine placement only? 

 

 

 

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the rear arc is for mine and sismic charge



#20 CPTMcMurphy

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 06:03 PM

I have had little luck with playing Stealth Devices, general I lose them the first or second time said ship, ussually Biggs, get shot at.  I think they have the possibility to be a great upgrade, but for 3 points you may find that for as easy as they are lost, they won't be be played to heavily.  A bonus shield, although I have yet to play with this card, may be a better upgrade despite the cost.  Just think of a Tie with a shield.

What is crazy about the green arrows for the Interceptor and A-wing is the fact that the entire turn 2 row is green (may be mistaken on the Interceptor since I don't own one yet).  Accept for certain senerios, there is no reason for an Interceptor or A-wing to stay stressed.  This is nice because it gives you a ship that can stay in the fight easier.  My biggest gaming play concern a player should have is the 2 hull that the A-wing has.  The first crit card an A-wing has to take can easily be its last.  The fact that an A-wing only has 2 attack really only makes it a slightly faster tie fight that should be able to survive one more hit.

The best use for the Firespray that I can fanthom is to use it as a deadicated missile boat.  Take Trelix (secondary weapon reroll) with the Slave 1 upgrade then load it with a proton torpedio, cluster missile, and seimic charge.  Use the torpedio the first time you can target lock, then the the missile in the proceding turn (assuming you can get your movements right without losing your action in a colission).  The first turn you can clear the parking lot you drop the charge as you move past your opponent's ships.  From there out you just need to keep the enemy in a fire arc and keep the main guns pounding away at them.

The one new card that I have problems with it the Proximity Mine.  The biggest issue I have with this is that it requires an action to put it in play.  This generally means that your oppenent is going to have time to avoid it or just got really unlucky in the movement selection.  Most of the time they will just be able to avoid it.  Since the most that can be in play, at this time, will be 2, I don't think proximity mines will have any decent play value until the Tie Bomber comes out.  At that point it may be possible to take enough mines that you can choke the board with them.  MInes will be something to revisit when the Tie Bomber is released.

I think a new combo to consider in the expansion will be Lando, Gaven, and Dutch.  With the right upgrade cards and play style it should be possible for each ship to get 2 actions a turn.






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