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Tactical Challenge: Beat the SSU!


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#1 Warboss Krag

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:29 AM

I am looking for practical advice on how to defeat the SSU. They are defeatable, but it's darn difficult…and yes, I've been the one on the SSU side, but I still am seeking ways to defeat the combo of a double-sized assault unit and multiple KV walkers. In the Zverograd campaign, a contest platoon of a defense command, two battle squads, a close combat squad with a commissar, a radio team (they are pure sneaky murder - 6 dice at 6" range, and all the Team advantages), and a Babushka (!) is damned hard to beat.

No suggestion is too outre; hit me with everything you've got!



#2 Warboss Krag

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:11 AM

One day later, 26 views, no advice. Really? I'm approaching the forum with complete honesty; yesterday I let my normal opponent use the force I described, and tried my Germans to beat him. It did not work well (all right, for one thing, my dice rolling failed miserably). I am quite honestly looking for advice, because I don't much like the thought of 'codex escalation.' We've already seen some with the Russian armor, which is often a better bang for the buck than Allied or German armor, particularly at the high end. That IS48 MBT is just death on treads; I don't think even the Stormtiger measures up.



#3 Dakkon426

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:21 AM

The specifics of your post are not clear, and your topic is a bit misleading. What point level are you playing and what are army lists you are using. You should also include what what role units are fufilling and where heroes and comisars are attached. Also what unit are you refering to as sturmtiger? 



#4 em_en_oh_pee

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 12:13 PM

Yea, I haven't played against SSU much, but as an Allied player I do not fear the combined squads. I have Flamethrowers everywhere and the Axis has plenty of access to Spray weapons. Furthermore, killing a KV47 should be easy for Laser-Jagd, Cobras, BBQ Squads w/ Sock & Tar, Tank Busters, Hammers w/ Rhino, and all sorts of other stuff.

Yes, the heavy armor is nasty, but if I drop down a Fireball in front of a Mao via Air Drop, it has one turn to kill my V7 DC 10 monster before my Napalm leaves it a smoldering shell. Its all about strategy/tactics and as Dakkon said, we need more info on what you are playing with, against, and how you play in general, etc.



#5 Warboss Krag

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:02 PM

Mostly infantry is the problem. The fact that the SSU units are so nasty when they react - their weapons get twice as many dice at 12" - really hurts the flamethrower units. The big double units for the SSU aren't as much problem with all the arty the Germans can drop on them (the MOMENT the Hans becomes separately available for purchase, I expect product sell-outs!). At the Zverograd campaign level, where you can't depend on such massive special tricks as airdropping in one-shot units (yes, that is a trick, and shouldn't work twice), the SSU is nastier than the mere +3 points that their infantry units cost.

There are your specifics: 150-point, single-platoon forces. Zverograd campaign rules. (Maybe some players should get away from the "I want my 2500-point 40K army where I don't have to decide what I can take and just take it all" thought process…)



#6 Dakkon426

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:54 PM

With such a vague responce all I can really say is remember to use suppression to stop units from reacting. And to not engage at ranges where your opponent has the upper hand, your infantry has a 4" longer range use it. Would be nice if you could have posted something besides you are playing at 150 points though. An example of a good post:

Hi guys Im playing a zverograde campagine at 150 points with an axis army I like fielding {typical army list} but my ssu opponent fields {typical ssu army list}  he always blobs his infantry together and I can't seem to take them out before they steamroll me.

First if you are looking for a walker solution the flamm-luther is great for dealing with big blobs of infantry. You could also try bring more snipers and use suppression to keep the squad from getting into range and shooting luthers can also work well in this roll and have some nasty tricks if your opponent gets too close. Also zombies can work for getting blobs off the field as well.



#7 Mike J

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:41 AM

There are other nasty solutions to the blobs - the Lothar pretty much wipes them off the table (one Sustained direct fire attack usually does it).

I usually play 300 points, so my expierence may not be completely applicable at 150.  I know low point games in general can magnify imbalances.

When I play SSU, the challenge I often face against Axis is being severely outnumbered.  Don't get me wrong, going first is a real bonus.  But watching multiple enemy units stay dedicated to my blob means it is always Suppressed and at least one of the precious few orders I get goes to a Regroup.  It is also very difficult to avoid falling into "bait and switch" traps where the enemy sends something at the blob forcing a "React + Suppression" or "don't React + Suppression" (screwed either way) situation and then follows up with "kill unit" that can safely walk up and mow down the blob.

Another serious weakness with the SSU units is a lack of effective Close Combat against Soldier 3 (Allied Soldier 3, I'm looking at you).  Granted, the Grenade Charge upgrade (2 AP per unit) addresses that (I'm still not clear if UGLs and other weapons with the Grenade ability count as grenades), but not only does it cost points, it also means no other unit upgrades (ouch).  Assuming no metagaming (knowing your oppoent's list/faction in advance), effective Close Combat is a costly gamble for SSU.  You spend 2 AP per unit, give up Grizzled Veterans or Needs of the Many only to see an Axis gun line across the table (Doh!)



#8 Warboss Krag

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:45 AM

Okay, specifics. The force to beat is a defense platoon with a command squad, two battle squads, a close combat squad with a commissar (to give them Badass), a radio team (to provide a two-man recon and assault group; 6 dice at 6" range with Team advantages), and a Babushka walker. Now, beat them with Germans, 150 points, no Hades book upgrades, single platoon. Battlefields typically have plenty of cover.



#9 Dakkon426

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:51 PM

 

Dust Warfare - Force Builder
Faction: Axis ( 150 / 150 )

---  Sturmgrenadiere Platoon (150)
Upgrade: Improved Command (5)
Command Section: Kommandotrupp (25)
1st Section: Battle Grenadiers (17)
2nd Section: Battle Grenadiers (17)
3rd Section: Recon Grenadiers (17)
4th Section: Recon Grenadiers (17)
Support: MPW III-D "Flamm-Luther" (40)
Support: Sniper Grenadier Team (12)

order the sniper to shoot every command phase, go for the Close combat squad first after they are down, your flamme luther will be pretty much unkillable. blitz the flamm-luther up the field with you other order, and use it to take out every thing you can remember you can combine shots for 14" range on the flamers. The troop sections can be pretty much anything you want, just follow the flamm-luther up with these guys and concetrate on killing anything that get near or past the flamm-luther. The command squad is the real lynch pinfor this list so try you best to keep then from dieing if you can't send an order to both the walker and the snipers your effectiveness goes way down. Also remember to use the Flamm-luther to tank shock whenever possible. 



#10 ninjaray

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:12 AM

Warboss Krag said:

Now, beat them with Germans, 150 points, no Hades book upgrades, single platoon. 

Why no Hades Upgrades? It really seems like your trying to restrict army biulding options in a silly way. 
That being said, why not larger games? At 300, the game is still pretty quick and has got me itching to play larger games.

 



#11 ninjaray

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:13 AM

Double post 



#12 Warboss Krag

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:39 PM

Check out the campaign rules in the Hades book. Hades upgrades are earned, not bought, in the campaign. And since we're gearing up for a campaign, I want the answer without the upgrades.

Oh, and by the way: Dumping the assault squad and upgrading the Babushka to the Matrioshka puts paid real damn quick to the Flammluther. Check out the double 152mm stat line.

However, we have discovered an answer to some of the nastiest new Sov armor: The Heavy Laser Grenadiers. Properly supported, they can frag almost any tank with one good salvo.



#13 Milgauss

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:00 PM

I'm new to DW (which probably explains my problem), but I'm not understanding: "a radio team (to provide a two-man recon and assault group; 6 dice at 6" range with Team advantages)".

I assume this referring to an observer team? Where's the 6 dice coming from?



#14 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 04:35 PM

Option 1:

 

Faction: Axis ( 147 / 150 )

---  Schwer Platoon (147)
Command Section: Heavy Kommandotrupp (35)
1st Section: Heavy Flak Grenadiers (26)
2nd Section: Heavy Flak Grenadiers (26)
4th Section: Laser-Jagdgrenadiere (25)
Support: Jagdgrenadiere (23)
Support: Sniper Grenadier Team (12)

 

Turtle up in heavy cover if possible and shred everything that comes at you.

 

Option 2:

 

Faction: Axis ( 150 / 150 )

---  Schwer Platoon (150)
Command Section: Heavy Kommandotrupp (35)
1st Section: Laser-Jagdgrenadiere (25)
Support: HPW VI-B "Sturmkö***" (90)

Three dice for initiative. Two units to guard the Sturmkö*** with.

Not the best option, but if you don't mind being TFG, it could work.

 

 

Milgauss said:

I'm new to DW (which probably explains my problem), but I'm not understanding: "a radio team (to provide a two-man recon and assault group; 6 dice at 6" range with Team advantages)".

I assume this referring to an observer team? Where's the 6 dice coming from?

 

I'm not sure what he meant here either.

 



#15 Warboss Krag

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 10:15 AM

Sov infantry have a sort of submachinegun that does 2 dice vs. Armor 2 infantry. And at 6" range you add another die per soldier for grenades. As for the 'team' advantage, that means considering soft cover to be hard cover, and observer teams are Agile. Not a bad deal for an 8-point filler.



#16 Milgauss

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 11:18 AM

Warboss Krag said:

Sov infantry have a sort of submachinegun that does 2 dice vs. Armor 2 infantry. And at 6" range you add another die per soldier for grenades. As for the 'team' advantage, that means considering soft cover to be hard cover, and observer teams are Agile. Not a bad deal for an 8-point filler.

I don't think the Nabuladatyel (SSU Observer Team) have grenades. I believe they have (2) PPSh-48 and (2) Knife. I really haven't found a use for them yet…



#17 zuggzugg

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 12:58 PM

Stop letting them get in 6 inch range? Supression and reactions are the key to this game. Axis can supress and outrange a good deal of units pretty easily.



#18 Warboss Krag

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:57 PM

They're an annoyance, not a major force. You know, flankers and scouts? Point-filler. And that extra 4 dice can be useful; they can pin a much larger and more dangerous unit, while taking little but suppression in response.



#19 Mike J

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

I have to agree that the observers serve little purpose.  The only effective use I've found for any of the observer teams is joining a Soldeir 2 command section hero to them to give the hero Team and a pair of radios.  Beyond that, they are not of much use and the points are often spent better elsewhere.  I think the main reason for their lack of purpose is that any Artillery weapon can direct fire with a range of 36" and make a Sustained attack.  It isn't that hard to get LOS to your target which is all the observer team provides.



#20 haslinger

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:49 AM

 

I feel your pain Warboss - I too play in a campaign against the SSU.  My opponent however likes to field Winter Child - so any of my S2 units take a beating.  He just finally figured out how to make him deadly effective - he's like a flying harasser.  At first I threw a ton of energy into attempting to take down the SSU force - but now I have to simply rely on an overall strategy of beating him via the misison parameters.  I still have to apply some tactical shifts to my plans - meaning I cannot afford to lose too many units - but sometimes a group of zombies makes for an oustanding piece of bait.  As an axis player I have learned NOT to sit idley by.  I'm not even sure how to play the axis as a defense team - save for adding dig in.  Angela is your friend - so are your snipers.  Blutzkrieg will get you as close as you need to be to soften him up.  I have used Hans in the past - but I'm trying out some new options.  One option I did a while back was take Manfred as CO + a beobachter - thus two radio commands + weiber serum (you MUST make yourself remember to use it).  Heavy Flak Grenadiers - are amazing.  You only have to use the burst feature IF they are in cover - if not - light him up.  It's 9 dice - all you are looking for is suppression - not a table wipe.  Also - if your opponent isn't too "cheeky", meaning he's stacked his campaign with heavy armor or WC, use Heinrich against his guys.  That's another 30" range vehicle.  Again - he can help keep the suppression on.

Here's a couple of the campaign playtest armies I used - I have included the outcomes best of memory.

Key Positions - Snow - 

 

Dust Warfare - Force Builder Faction: Axis ( 150 / 150 )

--- Heroes Manfred (15) - Survived

--- SturmgrenadierePlatoon(135) 

Upgrade: Improved Command (5)
Command Section: Kommandotrupp (25) - Survived

1st Section: Heavy Flak Grenadiers (26) - Survived

3rd Section: Laser-Jagdgrenadiere (25) - Survived

4th Section: Recon Grenadiers (17) - Dead as hell

Support: LPW I-C "Hans" (25) - Destroyed

Support: Sniper Grenadier Team (12) - Survived

Outcome: Mission won with moderate losses.

 

Symbolic victory, unpreparred, none


	
Dust Warfare - Force Builder
Faction: Axis ( 150 / 150 )

---  Sturmgrenadiere Platoon (150)
Upgrade: Extra Panzer Support (10)
Command Section: Manfred (15, Hero) - Survived
1st Section: Heavy Flak Grenadiers (26) - Survived
2nd Section: Axis Gorillas (24) - Dead
3rd Section: Battle Grenadiers (17) - Dead
Support: Beobachter Team (8) - Dead
Support: MPW III-A "Wotan" (50) - Survived

Outcome: Win with severe casualties

I am undefeated against my SSU opponent in 300 pt games - and although I won these two - the casualites versus the AP recovery cost hurt. I lost my patrol game embarrassingly when he deployed a chopper (the anti troop one) on my side of the table and within round 2 command phase had taken out my VIP - which was as schwer platoon. I had NO way of beating him as his command AP was only 25 - so I had to eat a very humbling patrol loss. I say that to mean - You CAN do it - just don't let him walk up on you. Do your best to balance your mission objectives without losing sight of your forces. If you're in a pinch - call a fallback - discretion is the better part of valor.

Good luck!!!

 

 






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