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#1 Toqtamish

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 05:11 AM

http://www.fantasyfl...s.asp?eidn=3898

 



#2 Messenger

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:31 PM

Snitch makes me very, very happy as a Criminal player.

Test Run is more versatile than Special Order. Pairing them together should really help thin decks out while boosting their tempo. That's perfect for the Shapers' newest ID. On its own, it gives Shapers their own search card, sparing them from using influence to include Special Order in their deck.



#3 Paddosan

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:08 PM

I'm not really excited about Snitch. Thing is… I think that if you know the game, you don't need cards to tell you what's going on.

Not sure if I made myself clear.
When I do make a Run, I hardly ever go blind. I usually know fully what I'm doing and why, plus I do have a certain idea of what to expect and I usually make sure to be prepared. Meaning I don't Run late in my turn when I expect to meet some Trace or Bioroid ICE, and I keep my hand full enough to survive a Snare! or Neural Katana… and possibly a Scorched Earth if I end up with a Tag.

Snitch, moreover, might actually make the Corp life easier.
If you see an ICE that you can't break or that will kill you, you gotta jack out… but by doing so before it is rezzed by the Corp, you prevent them from spending credits.
Imagine Snitch VS Archer. You can't break Archer, and you sure as hell better not trash two of your programs just to make the Corp waste some Agenda points… so what do you do? You jack out. And the Corp keeps her credits and Agenda points. Plus, the Corp gains a safe server until you have the card(s) you need to take on Archer.
And if you run there again, with the means to bypass Archer, the Corp might as well avoid rezzing it at all, it'd be a waste of Agenda points, wouldn't it?



#4 Nerdmeister

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:41 PM

Paddosan said:

Imagine Snitch VS Archer. You can't break Archer, and you sure as hell better not trash two of your programs just to make the Corp waste some Agenda points… so what do you do? You jack out. And the Corp keeps her credits and Agenda points. Plus, the Corp gains a safe server until you have the card(s) you need to take on Archer.

It sounds to me like you think it would be a greater loss to the corp than the runner, in the long run, if you don´t jack out in this specific scenario. If that´s the case then just don´t jack out. It IS optional.



#5 Paddosan

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:31 PM

Nerdmeister said:

It sounds to me like you think it would be a greater loss to the corp than the runner, in the long run, if you don´t jack out in this specific scenario. If that´s the case then just don´t jack out. It IS optional.


Well, it depends if the Runner can survive the loss of two programs, I guess.

Forfeiting an Agenda might surely hurt the Corp in the long Run, but the loss of Icebreakers seriously hinders the Runner immediately.

Not to mention the Run ends anyway.



#6 Messenger

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:47 AM

Paddosan said:

I'm not really excited about Snitch. Thing is… I think that if you know the game, you don't need cards to tell you what's going on.

Not sure if I made myself clear.
When I do make a Run, I hardly ever go blind. I usually know fully what I'm doing and why, plus I do have a certain idea of what to expect and I usually make sure to be prepared. Meaning I don't Run late in my turn when I expect to meet some Trace or Bioroid ICE, and I keep my hand full enough to survive a Snare! or Neural Katana… and possibly a Scorched Earth if I end up with a Tag.

Snitch, moreover, might actually make the Corp life easier.
If you see an ICE that you can't break or that will kill you, you gotta jack out… but by doing so before it is rezzed by the Corp, you prevent them from spending credits.
Imagine Snitch VS Archer. You can't break Archer, and you sure as hell better not trash two of your programs just to make the Corp waste some Agenda points… so what do you do? You jack out. And the Corp keeps her credits and Agenda points. Plus, the Corp gains a safe server until you have the card(s) you need to take on Archer.
And if you run there again, with the means to bypass Archer, the Corp might as well avoid rezzing it at all, it'd be a waste of Agenda points, wouldn't it?

Um… Your first scenario is running blind. Rather, what you're describing is being prepared for things you're likely to run into: unused clicks to escape bioroid ICE subroutines, to remove tags or to restock your grip. However, it neither accounts for the unlikely things you can still encounter nor for any severe or unusual damage said ICE brings.

As for your second and third scenarios, what you're referring to is how knowledge of what's coming up can deter a Runner. However, you're missing out on what you yourself said: "ICE… that will kill you" (the Runner). It doesn't matter that the Corp has to spend credits to rez ICE if it's going to kill the Runner and win the Corp the game. Any Corp player is willing to spend a fortune in credits if it will secure victory. From the Runner's perspective, the Corp not spending creds is nothing compared to the Runner directly and decisively losing the game.

And even if the exposed ICE is not going to kill the Runner, the damage it inflicts can be destructive and disruptive enough to give the Runner a serious disadvantage, from brain damage to trashed programs to even emptying his grip of cards he can use.

As for gaining a safe server: that happens with or without Snitch. It's not Snitch's fault, or even the fault of any other card that exposes derezzed cards. Heck, within your example, knowing it's Archer, it may even be to the benefit of Archer to run there anyway, knowing the Corp won't or can't rez that ICE. That's at least one less ICE to break and at most a free successful run.

The point of Snitch is that the Runner can spot these traps in order to avoid dangers that can hamper or even kill him. A Runner who sees danger ahead may have been deterred but at least he's neither crippled nor dead and can still go on to win later, while it's quite likely for the Runner who blindly walks into a trap to not survive at all.



#7 Messenger

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:56 AM

I forgot to mention: it's not automatic that I have to jack out. It depends on what Snitch reveals to me. I can choose to continue, either weathering Archer's effects (costing the Corp an agenda and credits and slowing him down) or because I know he can't rez it anyway (he doesn't have a scored agenda and/or money to feed to Archer), or I can jack out to avoid it, protecting my own resources. The course of action I take will depend on the situation at hand but the knowledge Snitch gives me lets me figure out the most beneficial option.

As far as Netrunner has always been about incomplete information for the Runner, having access to that knowledge is a significant advantage. As FFG said in its article, Snitch "won't help you directly succeed at runs, but it will help you run smarter."



#8 Paddosan

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:08 AM

Messenger said:

Um… Your first scenario is running blind. Rather, what you're describing is being prepared for things you're likely to run into: unused clicks to escape bioroid ICE subroutines, to remove tags or to restock your grip. However, it neither accounts for the unlikely things you can still encounter nor for any severe or unusual damage said ICE brings.


You're right, I used the wrong expression.
What I meant is that I never run just for the sake of it, never test my luck on a protected server.

Messenger said:

As for your second and third scenarios, what you're referring to is how knowledge of what's coming up can deter a Runner. However, you're missing out on what you yourself said: "ICE… that will kill you" (the Runner). It doesn't matter that the Corp has to spend credits to rez ICE if it's going to kill the Runner and win the Corp the game. Any Corp player is willing to spend a fortune in credits if it will secure victory. From the Runner's perspective, the Corp not spending creds is nothing compared to the Runner directly and decisively losing the game.

And even if the exposed ICE is not going to kill the Runner, the damage it inflicts can be destructive and disruptive enough to give the Runner a serious disadvantage, from brain damage to trashed programs to even emptying his grip of cards he can use.



When I said "if you see an ICE that will kill you", I was talking of a Runner with Snitch. Thus, when he sees an ICE that will kill him, he has to jack out.
Therefore the Corp won't need to rez the ICE because the Run ends.
Of course any Corp will pay all her money to kill a Runner, but in my example it just can't happen, unless the Runner forgets his Snitch.

Messenger said:
As for gaining a safe server: that happens with or without Snitch. It's not Snitch's fault, or even the fault of any other card that exposes derezzed cards. Heck, within your example, knowing it's Archer, it may even be to the benefit of Archer to run there anyway, knowing the Corp won't or can't rez that ICE. That's at least one less ICE to break and at most a free successful run.

The point of Snitch is that the Runner can spot these traps in order to avoid dangers that can hamper or even kill him. A Runner who sees danger ahead may have been deterred but at least he's neither crippled nor dead and can still go on to win later, while it's quite likely for the Runner who blindly walks into a trap to not survive at all.



Why would the Corp NOT rez Archer if it damages the Runner badly? Didn't you just say that a Corp will pay for such things?
And why would a Corp install Archer if it cannot even rez it? To me that's just bad play, or a bad bluff attempt anyway. If you get a Forged Activation Orders your Archer is gone for good… and that too happened many times to my opponents in tournaments.

In my example I was assuming the Corp can rez Archer. And if the Runner is forced to end the run or lose, the advantage is on the Corp, which didn't waste an Agenda nor pay the credits.

Snitch is not at fault, it saved the Runner, but it also indirectly helps the Corp on the specific case, that's what I was pointing at.

And again, that only happens to Runners who go unprepared, because you always have to consider which ICE the Corp can have at her disposal.

That quote from the FFG article, however, is not entirely correct in my opinion.
Snitch does not help you run smarter, on the contrary, it helps you run wilder. Cause it can save you from stuff, but it can't give any kind of information in advance… you still have to make a run, and only when you approach the ICE, you can know what it is.

It will help later on, but only if there was something you really needed to prepare for, otherwise it has no effect. If you keep running means you can take down that ICE, and you could do that with or without Snitch anyway.

It's like Infiltration. When I started playing I found that kind of information really valuable, but the more I played, the less I relied on it. Because now I'm way more capable of guesstimate the risks on my own.



#9 photogasm

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:43 AM

<3 Snitch.

 

Love it.



#10 TheRealLeo

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:18 AM

Paddosan said:


In my example I was assuming the Corp can rez Archer. And if the Runner is forced to end the run or lose, the advantage is on the Corp, which didn't waste an Agenda nor pay the credits.

However, at the same time, the Corp lost out on severely incapacitating the Runner. That is not an advantage for the Corp.

The advantage you are attempting to describe can also exist if Snitch is not present. The Corp can simply decide it does not wish to rez Archer. If the Corp does not think it is worth it, then they don't have to rez it. The presence of Snitch does not in any way give the Corp an advantage. It gives the Runner options, which is always a disadvantage for the Corp.



#11 daedalusaf

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 02:19 PM

Not sure why there is an argument that Snitch favors the Corp…

The way I see it, if it is beneficial for the Corp to rez its ICE, it will do it regardless of if the Runner is able to see it. These are the scenarios that play out in regards to Archer:

Scenario 1:

Runner runs a server, no Snitch. Manages to bypass the first ICE. Decides that he has enough creds to take the risk to move forward. Corp can either:

  • Rez Archer, making the Runner pay. In this scenario, Runner made an uninformed decision on whether it is viable to run
  • Doesn't Rez Archer, and runner is able to save creds for the next hurdle, and so does the Corp. In this scenario, Runner has also made an uninformed decision to run

Scenario 2:

Runner runs a server, has Snitch. Manages to bypass the first ICE. Looks at Archer and decides that he has enough creds to bypass it or is willing to take the risk instead of jacking out. Corp can either:

  • Rez Archer, making the Runner pay regardless. In this scenario, Runner is able to make an informed decision on whether it is viable to run
  • Doesn't Rez Archer, and runner is able to save creds for the next hurdle, and so does the Corp. In this scenario, Runner has also made an informed decision to run

Scenario 3:

Runner runs a server, has Snitch. Looks at Archer, jacks out. Runs a different server

  • Runner has made an informed decision to jack out and try a different server. Of course the Corp saves creds and an Agenda, but the decision is solely on the runner

 

In all scenarios, the Runner decides whether it is smart to move on. The Corp reacts regardless

I love the way that the Criminal faction is playing out to be a faction that makes strategic, informed decisions

In other news, I'm really digging Woodcutter, but I'm unsure on where Weyland is going in regards to identity as a faction. It seems to want to do all things at once.



#12 Messenger

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:55 PM

Parsing this into separate replies to make addressing points easier.

Paddosan said:

Messenger said:

Um… Your first scenario is running blind. Rather, what you're describing is being prepared for things you're likely to run into: unused clicks to escape bioroid ICE subroutines, to remove tags or to restock your grip. However, it neither accounts for the unlikely things you can still encounter nor for any severe or unusual damage said ICE brings.


You're right, I used the wrong expression.
What I meant is that I never run just for the sake of it, never test my luck on a protected server.

(Later…)

And why would a Corp install Archer if it cannot even rez it? To me that's just bad play, or a bad bluff attempt anyway. If you get a Forged Activation Orders your Archer is gone for good… and that too happened many times to my opponents in tournaments.

Um… If you "never test [your] luck on a protected server", then that installed Archer that cannot be rezzed does work as a bluff simply because it's out there. And a bluff that works is not a bad bluff.

In fact, that's the point of cards being installed face-down in this game: the Runner doesn't know if the Corp can or cannot rez it, the Runner doesn't know if the ICE is big or small, dangerous or just an obstruction, the Runner doesn't know if it's an agenda or an ambush asset.  That's how bluffing is built right into the game. I could get only high cost ICE I can't rez in my hand, but if I put it down in front of my servers, I can scare the Runner and keep him from running in and getting the prize. That is a far better course of action than not putting down ICE and telling him almost explicitly that he's free to run into my servers.



#13 Messenger

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:01 PM

Paddosan said:

Messenger said:

As for your second and third scenarios, what you're referring to is how knowledge of what's coming up can deter a Runner. However, you're missing out on what you yourself said: "ICE… that will kill you" (the Runner). It doesn't matter that the Corp has to spend credits to rez ICE if it's going to kill the Runner and win the Corp the game. Any Corp player is willing to spend a fortune in credits if it will secure victory. From the Runner's perspective, the Corp not spending creds is nothing compared to the Runner directly and decisively losing the game.

 

And even if the exposed ICE is not going to kill the Runner, the damage it inflicts can be destructive and disruptive enough to give the Runner a serious disadvantage, from brain damage to trashed programs to even emptying his grip of cards he can use.


 

When I said "if you see an ICE that will kill you", I was talking of a Runner with Snitch. Thus, when he sees an ICE that will kill him, he has to jack out.
Therefore the Corp won't need to rez the ICE because the Run ends.
Of course any Corp will pay all her money to kill a Runner, but in my example it just can't happen, unless the Runner forgets his Snitch.

Why are you saying it's better for the Runner to lose the game than to cause the Corp to pay? The scenario with Snitch is either:

a) Runner sees ICE is lethal. He jacks out. Corp doesn't have to rez said ICE. Runner is still in the game.

or

b) Runner sees ICE is lethal. He doesn't jack out. Corp rezzes said ICE. Runner fries. Corp wins.

A Runner using Snitch can save himself from falling into traps, especially those that will cause him to lose. Why are you insisting one instance of cash hindrance for the Corp is more important to the Runner than saving himself from losing?



#14 photogasm

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:45 PM

I'm surprised woodcutter isn't getting more attention.

 

Imagine 8 advancement tokens on a woodcutter.  Either gonna do a lotta damage or cost a massive amount to break through.



#15 Messenger

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 05:02 PM

Paddosan said:

 


Messenger said:

As for gaining a safe server: that happens with or without Snitch. It's not Snitch's fault, or even the fault of any other card that exposes derezzed cards. Heck, within your example, knowing it's Archer, it may even be to the benefit of Archer to run there anyway, knowing the Corp won't or can't rez that ICE. That's at least one less ICE to break and at most a free successful run.

 

The point of Snitch is that the Runner can spot these traps in order to avoid dangers that can hamper or even kill him. A Runner who sees danger ahead may have been deterred but at least he's neither crippled nor dead and can still go on to win later, while it's quite likely for the Runner who blindly walks into a trap to not survive at all.


 

Why would the Corp NOT rez Archer if it damages the Runner badly? Didn't you just say that a Corp will pay for such things?
And why would a Corp install Archer if it cannot even rez it? To me that's just bad play, or a bad bluff attempt anyway. If you get a Forged Activation Orders your Archer is gone for good… and that too happened many times to my opponents in tournaments.

In my example I was assuming the Corp can rez Archer. And if the Runner is forced to end the run or lose, the advantage is on the Corp, which didn't waste an Agenda nor pay the credits.

Snitch is not at fault, it saved the Runner, but it also indirectly helps the Corp on the specific case, that's what I was pointing at.

And again, that only happens to Runners who go unprepared, because you always have to consider which ICE the Corp can have at her disposal.

That quote from the FFG article, however, is not entirely correct in my opinion.
Snitch does not help you run smarter, on the contrary, it helps you run wilder. Cause it can save you from stuff, but it can't give any kind of information in advance… you still have to make a run, and only when you approach the ICE, you can know what it is.

It will help later on, but only if there was something you really needed to prepare for, otherwise it has no effect. If you keep running means you can take down that ICE, and you could do that with or without Snitch anyway.

It's like Infiltration. When I started playing I found that kind of information really valuable, but the more I played, the less I relied on it. Because now I'm way more capable of guesstimate the risks on my own.

The Corp not rezzing Archer is actually your example. I based it on what you said previously:

"And if you run there again, with the means to bypass Archer, the Corp might as well avoid rezzing it at all, it'd be a waste of Agenda points, wouldn't it?"

Thus, knowing it's Archer through Snitch and that either

a) the Runner can defeat it if the Corp rezzes it, he can make the run anyway, or

b) the Corp, knowing the Runner can defeat it, is likely not to rez it to avoid forfeiting an agenda, thus he can make the run anyway.

Both scenarios are to the Runner's benefit because his Snitch lets him know that he's up against Archer and he act according to that.

As for "the advantage is on the Corp, which didn't waste an Agenda nor pay the credits", neither did the Corp earn credits from Archer, smash two programs, then end the run. The Runner remains safe and free to run again as opposed to having lost two programs which would delay him more than the click you say he wasted.

Furthermore, it actually helps "Runners who go unprepared" precisely because it actually allows them to make runs safely without preparations! complice Facing a server with unrezzed ICE, a Runner can either

a) use several clicks and even turns to accumulate credits and to dig through his stack for each kind of icebreaker, giving the Corp time to raise credits and/or add more ICE to that server, or

b) attack NOW! while it's likelier that said ICE can't be rezzed and I can succeed in my run; in the event that ICE can be rezzed, I can escape with no harm.

As for "Snitch does not help you run smarter, it helps you run wilder", um, NO. The information I gain through Snitch allows me to see more courses of action from which I can pick the most beneficial one, as opposed to running blind without it wherein I commit to extremly likely erroneous choices.

As for still having to "make a run", that's just a fair price for what it does, as compared to Lemuria Codecracker (which requires a previous successful run on a specific server, a click and credit) and Infiltration (single use). No matter how you look at it, it's still better than blindly and fully falling into a trap the Corp set up.

In regards to "It will help later on…", why only later? The Corp is most vulnerable in the early game. Even if he managed to draw ICE on his starting hand, there's always the strong possibility that it's not something he can rez. Snitch allows the Runner to make that early run without risk, without need for icebreakers and the cash to operate them. And as far as Snitch is a Criminal card, that's just right for the faction that aggressively runs- even- gasp! unprepared- thanks to their ability to evade defenses.

Lastly, the key word there is "guesstimate", which is not the same as certainty. Oh, but I'm sure your guesses have never been wrong… complice



#16 Messenger

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 05:04 PM

photogasm said:

I'm surprised woodcutter isn't getting more attention.

 

Imagine 8 advancement tokens on a woodcutter.  Either gonna do a lotta damage or cost a massive amount to break through.

Because there's no dissent (so far) that it's bad ICE. Thus no argument and thus no extra attention. complice



#17 Messenger

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 05:08 PM

photogasm said:

I'm surprised woodcutter isn't getting more attention.

 

Imagine 8 advancement tokens on a woodcutter.  Either gonna do a lotta damage or cost a massive amount to break through.

Having said what I said earlier… let's try this:

4 credit cost yet it doesn't do anything until after it's rezzed. Eats up clicks to become dangerous.

(Meh. Not really into this. I personally don't think Woodcutter is bad; I do see its potential and threat.)



#18 Saturnine

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 05:09 PM

photogasm said:

Imagine 8 advancement tokens on a woodcutter.  Either gonna do a lotta damage or cost a massive amount to break through.

Sure, but at that point it's likely you've invested 12 credits and 8 clicks plus installation. That's an awful lot of time and credits, and its value dips significantly against a runner with Parasite. Also, in the early stages of pumping it up it's more of a minor inconvenience to the runner, especially given that it has no surprise value. Sure, it's nice if you can use it with Corporate Troubleshooter, but only if you can outspend the runner.

I can see the card may have some potential, but I'm probably going to remain skeptical until I've played with it and wins me over.



#19 Paddosan

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 08:16 PM

 

Messenger, seems to me you kept making assumptions based on partial quotes of what I said, which makes it quite easy to twist or misunderstand the meaning.
 
Here is an example:
Paddosan said:
Paddosan said: If you see an ICE that you can't break or that will kill you, you gotta jack out… but by doing so before it is rezzed by the Corp, you prevent them from spending credits.
And that's what you got from it:
Messenger said:
Messenger said: However, you're missing out on what you yourself said: "ICE… that will kill you" (the Runner). It doesn't matter that the Corp has to spend credits to rez ICE if it's going to kill the Runner and win the Corp the game.[/quote]
 
Your last sentence is just obvious, and it is for anyone who played this game enough.
But it's derived from a partial quote which changes the meaning of what I said.
 
Messenger said:
Messenger said: Um… If you "never test [your] luck on a protected server", then that installed Archer that cannot be rezzed does work as a bluff simply because it's out there. And a bluff that works is not a bad bluff.[/quote]
Again, partial quote.
The whole phase was as follows:
Paddosan said:
Paddosan said: I never run just for the sake of it, never test my luck on a protected server.[/quote]
For the sake of it, which in this case would be (and correct me if I'm wrong, since I ain't am not a native speaker after all) "running for the sake of running" as in "running just to run", for no particular reason.
I meant to say, and I thought it was clear (so please forgive me if it wasn't), that I usually run with a purpose.
Thus, I judge by the amount of credits left for the Corp, the number of ICE on a server, the ICE he already rezzed, the influence I know he spent on other cards… stuff like that. And if it seems to me I can make it, I run, Archer or not.
 
In a game of the last tournament, my opponent had 4 agenda points and I had less (don't remember, 2 or 3, I stole an Agenda from R&D).
He had a server with 2 layers of ICE and an Agenda installed (I knew, because he installed it over an Asset).
I knew it could be the end of the game, and I had to run there… but I also knew he could have some very bad ICE. What could be the worst ICE for me? Archer.
So I gathered credits to reach 8 and run. He decided to rezz the first ICE and it was, infact, Archer. But he had to forfeit an Agenda (and he only had 2 AstroScript) for it. I paid 8 credits to break the 2 Trash subroutines, and ended the run.
That move made me win the game, because he did score that Agenda, but it only brought him back to 4 and the last agenda he did, for 1 point, wasn't enough to make him win.
 
Snitch would have helped me in that situation? I honestly don't think so.
 
That's why I said "I'm not really excited about Snitch".
 
I don't think it's a bad card either, since, as I wrote "it can save you from stuff", but as I said "I think that if you know the game, you don't need cards to tell you what's going on". That's it, agree or don't agree, that's still what I think.
 
Messenger said:
Messenger said: Lastly, the key word there is "guesstimate", which is not the same as certainty. Oh, but I'm sure your guesses have never been wrong… complice

And there's no need for sarcasm either. Here is the complete paragraph of what I said:

Paddosan said:

Paddosan said: It's like Infiltration. When I started playing I found that kind of information really valuable, but the more I played, the less I relied on it. Because now I'm way more capable of guesstimate the risks on my own.


Does it looks like I said I am never wrong, to you? complice



 

 



#20 Nerdmeister

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:07 PM

Paddosan said:

 

In a game of the last tournament, my opponent had 4 agenda points and I had less (don't remember, 2 or 3, I stole an Agenda from R&D).

He had a server with 2 layers of ICE and an Agenda installed (I knew, because he installed it over an Asset).

 

So how did you know he just didn´t install another asset (trap) over the old one to mess with you, oh wise one? sonreir

This is something I myself have done a few times. Just every now and then it can win a game to get the runner convinced that he knows something






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