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Giving Strength and Toughness less importance


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#1 LordoftheMilk

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:17 AM

Hello,

 

I have been toying with the idea of replacing the dmage inflicted by actions by the number 4 + damage of the weapon/spell instead of the usual Ability score + damage of the weapon/spell.

 

So for example, a sword would do 9 straight damage, only modified by the action used to wield it.

 

Alternatively, I have toyed with the idea of only keeping the base damage, and removing toughness from soak. So a sword would do 5 straight damage, but only non-toughness based soak would affect the damage dealt.

 

These modifications would give abilities less impact on the game, which could be an overall benefit.

 

What do you think? Do you think this could cause some serious imbalance?. Perhaps for high toughness low armor dudes this could be a problem?



#2 Yepesnopes

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:55 AM

For a PC level it may work as you comment, but when you go into the world of NPCs, there you will have to work harder. As per raw, NPC have few action cards and fewer or no skills trained, they rely 95% on their characteristics to inflict and soak damage.

Cheers,

Yepes


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#3 dvang

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:14 AM

LordoftheMilk said:

Hello,

 

I have been toying with the idea of replacing the dmage inflicted by actions by the number 4 + damage of the weapon/spell instead of the usual Ability score + damage of the weapon/spell.

 

So for example, a sword would do 9 straight damage, only modified by the action used to wield it.

 

Alternatively, I have toyed with the idea of only keeping the base damage, and removing toughness from soak. So a sword would do 5 straight damage, but only non-toughness based soak would affect the damage dealt.

 

These modifications would give abilities less impact on the game, which could be an overall benefit.

 

What do you think? Do you think this could cause some serious imbalance?. Perhaps for high toughness low armor dudes this could be a problem?

My question is, why? What are you trying to solve?

a) First of all, should a very strong PC/NPC do the same damage with a sword as a weak one? A ST 2 halfing will do the same damage with a sword as a St 6 Ogre? That doesn't seem right.

b) WFRP is already dangerous enough, with it being fairly easy to hit and deal damage to PCs and NPCs. Why are you wanting to remove Toughness from the damage reduction/soak value? Are you really finding it difficult to cause wounds? Certainly, this will unbalance high toughness-low armor creatures. 

I just don't understand the intent here. Why do you think that abilities have too much of an impact?

However, regardless I'll try to give some specific constructive input on your suggestion.  I might suggest using "3" as the average. I.e. a "0" modifier. Then add or subtract based on the relevant difference from 3. So a ST2 halfing would do weapon damage -1 with a sword. A ST6 Ogre, would do weapon damage +3 with a sword. Conversely, Toughness 4 would add 1 soak, toughness 5 would add 2 soak, etc.

Either of those will 'tone down' the influence of characteristics on damage given and received. I would suggest that both changes would need to be used in conjuction with each other, otherwise you'll end up unbalancing damage given vs damage received.



#4 LordoftheMilk

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:13 AM

Actually, a str. 6 Ogre would roll a lot more dice for his attack resulting in more successes and boons, and therefore more damage and criticals, than a str. 2 halfling.

 

My problem with ability scores being added to damage is that you get twîce the bonus for one time the investment.

 

A str. 4 character will not only roll more dice and therefore succeed more damaging actions, but his base dmg. will also be higher^than a str. 3 character. This results in strength being an absolute necessity when you want to chop down monsters.

This is not very congruent with my perspective of warhammer, where skill can replace brute stats. Indeed, apart from magic items, dudes like Tyrion of Felix Jaegar should be able to be daunting opponents despite their stats being not exceptional.

 

The current system does not allow for that. Either you are strong and therefore good at hitiing and damaging, or you are not and therefore you are no good at all.

 

After more thought I am thinking of doing that, just removing all stats from soaking and damaging, and adding a simple trait to some monsters:

 

Huge: add + 2 soak to any hit inflicted on it.

Gargantuan: add +5 soak to any hit inclited on it.

 

Huge would apply to troll - sized creatures, and gargantuan to dragon-sized creatures. Perhaps there could be more intermediate soak additions for intermediate sizes.

Within this system, I believe stats become less of a must have, and therefore justifies pcs not necessariyl having to go for str 6, or int 6 or agi 6 no matter what, though these stats remain rewarding.

 

Any thoughts?

 



#5 Yepesnopes

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:11 AM

I am going to give my most honest thought about this.

I have been trying to change some of the main mechanics of the game (like skills and stats, recharge times, opposed checks, character development…) which in my opinion I find poor at best for a warhammer setting based rpg. What I have encountered is that it is A LOT of work. Many main mechanics are interconnected, and changing one implies that you will have to change another, finally you will find yourself in need of rewritting the whole mechanics of the game to level things up.

Then, I realised that the game, although weak in mechanics, it is fairly balanced, but most relevant, it is fun (although I still cannot say 100% why). My counsel is, that if you and your player have fun playing it, leave it as it is. It is far from a perfect game I agree, but you don't need a perfect game if you have fun.

On the other hand, if this sort of things are a barrier for you and your players, I think it is better you look into another game, there are plenty, and many are really great games.

Cheers,

Yepes

 

P.S: I will still give a read to what you propose and try to give my opinion.


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#6 Boehm

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:57 PM

If u find high stats to be overpowered - how about simply limiting stats at character start? No stat higher than 4 …or even 3.

 

Or increase cost to increase a stat from 4 to 5 …and from 5 to 6 …



#7 Yepesnopes

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:17 AM

LordoftheMilk said:

This is not very congruent with my perspective of warhammer, where skill can replace brute stats. Indeed, apart from magic items, dudes like Tyrion of Felix Jaegar should be able to be daunting opponents despite their stats being not exceptional.

The current system does not allow for that. Either you are strong and therefore good at hitiing and damaging, or you are not and therefore you are no good at all.

Any thoughts?

After giving another thought to your post, indeed you are right.

In Warhammer 3 monsters and characters in general with high stats are very good at hitting the target and deliver a lot of damage.

Agreed, this system does not allow the stereotype of a fantasy setting were for example Trolls and Giants are "clumsy fighters" but if they land a blow they will tear you donw to pieces. The system does not allow neither the high skilled nimble fighter such as an Estalian Diestro. This last case is palliated by the fact that you can construct a decent (although limited) combo /rotation with cards that use Ag for both hitting and damage calculation like Nimble Strike or The Magrita Trust.

Aside, this rises the question of, can a group of adventurers ever (in terms of XP) defeat a group of for example Orcs that will outnumber them 2 to 1? of Balck Orcs? Forget about things like Chaos Warriors or so.

Nonetheless, this has not an easy solving without going through a deep reformation of mechanics like character creation, skills, specializations and character development, just to mention some.

Keep us posted.

 

Cheers,

Yepes


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#8 valvorik

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 08:05 AM

Yepesnopes said:

Agreed, this system does not allow the stereotype of a fantasy setting were for example Trolls and Giants are "clumsy fighters" but if they land a blow they will tear you donw to pieces. The system does not allow neither the high skilled nimble fighter such as an Estalian Diestro. This last case is palliated by the fact that you can construct a decent (although limited) combo /rotation with cards that use Ag for both hitting and damage calculation like Nimble Strike or The Magrita Trust.

Aside, this rises the question of, can a group of adventurers ever (in terms of XP) defeat a group of for example Orcs that will outnumber them 2 to 1? of Balck Orcs? Forget about things like Chaos Warriors or so.

Actualy for the "clumsy but dangerous if they hit fighter" you can simply up the Damage Rating of creature leaving St low, or leave St high for a big creature but say it has an added challenge die attacking small targets.

For agile fighter, there are a fair number of Ag based actions and you can always create monsters that use AG (little spites for example definitely use AG not St). 

For the "defeated foes outnumbering us" scene, I think the system intends to represent that through "a good chunk of those foes were henchmen".



#9 Yepesnopes

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:28 AM

valvorik said:

Actualy for the "clumsy but dangerous if they hit fighter" you can simply up the Damage Rating of creature leaving St low, or leave St high for a big creature but say it has an added challenge die attacking small targets.

For agile fighter, there are a fair number of Ag based actions and you can always create monsters that use AG (little spites for example definitely use AG not St). 

For the "defeated foes outnumbering us" scene, I think the system intends to represent that through "a good chunk of those foes were henchmen".

Good point Valvorik. That is indeed a good thing of the warhammer 3 system. Bending the system, or creating additional rules, like the one you propose for big creatures (I like it specially) is quite easy.

I want to use this oportunity to say once more how much I dislike the henchmen rules. It is a relief that in SW EotE they have polished them a bit more.

Cheers,

Yepes


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#10 No:12

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:51 PM

Hi,

I sympathise with anyone having issues with the problems of high stats scaling badle against difficulty numbers, and it does require a bit of creative thought by GMs to keep things interesting.

Have to say though I do find it refreshing that creatures like trolls now have a really savage threat with the high strength. Too many times in 1st and 2nd ed I have had a troll roll three attacks and end up flailing around uselessly. In 3rd when I roll for a big guys attack there is always a sense of fear in the PCs.

Massive differences in physicallity should play some importance in WFRP, Ive never sparred with a troll but sparring with bigger stronger guys is certainly very challenging!

As Yepes said though, if its fun just roll with it, if its not find out how to make it fun for your group ;)



#11 Mexorlon

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 06:18 PM

Just an idea…how about making special weapon group: fencing.wich uses agility to hit, still str for dam (perhaps agi+str/2)

also make the defence of a char agi-2(3)+armor 

regarding npc…different rules…make that Big troll take a basic of 2 Black dice just because his clumsy…

my 5 cent

Mex

 






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