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Fall of the Jedi timing


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#1 Badmojojojo

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:45 PM

Is there no option to search by forum specific location? 

Anyway, Fall of the Jedi states, "Reaction: After your draw phase begins, place 1 card from your hand on the bottom of your deck."  Does this happen before or after you draw to your reserve value?

If it is before then you might as well dump that last card in your prior edge battle!



#2 dbmeboy

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 05:00 PM

It happens before drawing up to your reserve value. Note that it is optional. It basically allows you to dump one extra card each turn if you want to.

#3 Pentarn

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 04:03 AM

Badmojojojo said:

If it is before then you might as well dump that last card in your prior edge battle!

Not exactly… it allows you to run through your deck a little bit faster without having that card to be discarded. Maybe that will be a (small) advantage if we get to see any mill-decks in the future.



#4 Badmojojojo

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:52 AM

dbmeboy said:

It happens before drawing up to your reserve value. Note that it is optional. It basically allows you to dump one extra card each turn if you want to.

OPTIONAL???  Where do you see that?  It looks like a detriment to balance the rest of the power cards in the set forcing you to dump a card.

I was just wondering about the timing, as with all the cards that say, "After the beginning of [phase] do [this]" that is such a vague statment. 



#5 dbmeboy

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:05 AM

Badmojojojo said:

 

dbmeboy said:

It happens before drawing up to your reserve value. Note that it is optional. It basically allows you to dump one extra card each turn if you want to.

 

OPTIONAL???  Where do you see that?  It looks like a detriment to balance the rest of the power cards in the set forcing you to dump a card.

I was just wondering about the timing, as with all the cards that say, "After the beginning of [phase] do [this]" that is such a vague statment. 

 

 

It's optional in the way that all Actions and Reactions are optional unless they specifically say Forced (see Rancor).

Pg 25:

"Forced
While most card abilities are voluntary, some interrupt and reaction effects are preceded by the word “Forced.” Such effects must be resolved  immediately whenever their specified trigger occurs as described in their effect text."

 

As for timing, it's pretty straight forward:

1. The draw phase begins

1b. Players may use reactions or interrupts to the draw phas beginning

2. You may discard a card

3. You draw up to or discard down to your reserve value



#6 Badmojojojo

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:30 AM

I think that is poor wording.  Since it is always in play then it should have the word "may" added. 



#7 Toqtamish

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 07:10 AM

Badmojojojo said:

I think that is poor wording.  Since it is always in play then it should have the word "may" added. 

 

Why when the rules clearly tell you that all actions and reactions are optional unless they say forced ?

 



#8 Badmojojojo

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:44 AM

Why pay for a card that is optional? That makes no sense. On the other side, as an example, I play something that triggers Vader's Reaction 1 damage on my opponent's Rookie Pilot. He declares, "The pilot gets to live because all cards are optional unless forced."

#9 dbmeboy

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:16 AM

Badmojojojo said:
Why pay for a card that is optional? That makes no sense. On the other side, as an example, I play something that triggers Vader's Reaction 1 damage on my opponent's Rookie Pilot. He declares, "The pilot gets to live because all cards are optional unless forced."
If Vader's ability wasn't optional you'd have to damage one of your own units if there were no LS units when you played an event. In your example, you'd have the option to use it to kill the Rookie Pilot or you could choose to let him live.

#10 Toqtamish

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:44 AM

Badmojojojo said:

Why pay for a card that is optional? That makes no sense. On the other side, as an example, I play something that triggers Vader's Reaction 1 damage on my opponent's Rookie Pilot. He declares, "The pilot gets to live because all cards are optional unless forced."

 

That does not make sense. You control Vader therefore you decide whether or not to use his reaction. Not your opponent. 



#11 Badmojojojo

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:53 AM

Sorry, think you missed my point of an exaggeration for allowing everything to be optional. I was trying to convey the LS player ignoring the damage by choice because it does not say Forced on the card. I wish FFG could convey their intent on some of these cards. When is the FAQ coming?

#12 Badmojojojo

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:57 AM

Toqtamish said:

Badmojojojo said:

Why pay for a card that is optional? That makes no sense. On the other side, as an example, I play something that triggers Vader's Reaction 1 damage on my opponent's Rookie Pilot. He declares, "The pilot gets to live because all cards are optional unless forced."

 

That does not make sense. You control Vader therefore you decide whether or not to use his reaction. Not your opponent. 

Exactly. That is my point. Just because it does not say Forced does not mean it should not have an effect. Could not think of a card that worked as an analogy for a player affecting itself.

#13 Toqtamish

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:59 AM

The choice of using the action is optional. Not applying its effect. No one said otherwise. 



#14 dbmeboy

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:19 AM

Badmojojojo said:

Toqtamish said:

Badmojojojo said:

Why pay for a card that is optional? That makes no sense. On the other side, as an example, I play something that triggers Vader's Reaction 1 damage on my opponent's Rookie Pilot. He declares, "The pilot gets to live because all cards are optional unless forced."

 

 

That does not make sense. You control Vader therefore you decide whether or not to use his reaction. Not your opponent. 

Exactly. That is my point. Just because it does not say Forced does not mean it should not have an effect. Could not think of a card that worked as an analogy for a player affecting itself.

Vader's ability is entirely optional, as it does not say Forced.  The DS player has the option on whether or not to use it when he or she plays a sith event card.  The LS player does not have the option to ignore its results if the DS player chooses to use it any more than either player has the option to ignore any card text or game rule that they don't like.  I'm honestly not sure if you're having trouble understanding how this works or just trolling at this point… if there's something about how Reactions work that is confusing you, could you please restate the question?



#15 Badmojojojo

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:46 AM

I know Vader's power is optional. I understand the light side played cannot choose whether or not to take damage. No, I am not trolling. I was pointing out the absurdity of allowing everything to be optional. If that is unclear then this this thread is slowly de-railing into the definition of irony. I give up.

#16 Toqtamish

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:08 PM

How is it absurd to give players the option on whether or not to use the actions on their cards ??? To do otherwise would be absurd.



#17 dbmeboy

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:12 PM

Badmojojojo said:

I know Vader's power is optional. I understand the light side played cannot choose whether or not to take damage. No, I am not trolling. I was pointing out the absurdity of allowing everything to be optional. If that is unclear then this this thread is slowly de-railing into the definition of irony. I give up.

 

Except not everything is optional.  The things that aren't optional are clearly marked by the use of the term Forced while the things that are optional are clearly marked by the lack of that term.  If you find it absurd that cards have optional abilities, I'm sorry but TCG/LCGs are probably not for you.  In this case, non-Forced card abilities function much like Activated Abilities in MtG: choosing to activate them or not is completely up to the player controlling the card.



#18 Badmojojojo

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:16 PM

Toqtamish said:

How is it absurd to give players the option on whether or not to use the actions on their cards ??? To do otherwise would be absurd.

http://www.fantasyfl...=4&efidt=770652 DailyRich understands me! Is there a REP button on here?

#19 Surge1000

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

Badmojojojo said:

Toqtamish said:

How is it absurd to give players the option on whether or not to use the actions on their cards ??? To do otherwise would be absurd.

http://www.fantasyfl...=4&efidt=770652 DailyRich understands me! Is there a REP button on here?

 

OK, it's a slightly different mechanic that most of this game's predecessors have used, but a lot of them required some sort of action to exercise an ability, like "tapping,"  "bowing," "turning," etc.  It's spelled out pretty clearly in the rules, or at least I thought it was, so I'm not really sure what the controversy is.  It's not really too difficult to differentiate:  forced reactions and forced interrupts are required actions.  Reactions and interrupts are triggered optionally by the controlling player.



#20 stormwolf27

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:47 PM

Badmojojojo said:

Toqtamish said:

How is it absurd to give players the option on whether or not to use the actions on their cards ??? To do otherwise would be absurd.

http://www.fantasyfl...=4&efidt=770652 DailyRich understands me! Is there a REP button on here?

Instead of this back and forth, which is obviously just upsetting some people, let's look at it like this… For those of you familiar with M:tG and other similar games, just think of the absence of the word "forced" to be an unwritten inclusion of the word "may". It's the simplest way to look at the situation.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka





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