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Flesh Out a Logistics Roll?


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#1 venkelos

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:38 AM

As I am looking through my book, I find that, like all of the other games, OW has a "get stuff you don't already have" mechanic, in this case, Logistics Tests. I was wondering if anyone more knowledgeable than myself would be so kind as to do some examples, maybe a little clearer than the book did (seeing as I am asking AFTER reading the book's entry)?

Were I to be playing Only War, and my GM wasn't disallowing things (it happens), I would most likely see myself as a Cadian Psyker. Say my character, Savant Militant Mikhael Alexikov (needed something seemingly appropriate for rank) and his unit have done rather well for themselves, fighting Orks on Kulth. He has climbed to PR 5, and is rather terrifying with his psychic powers, but fighting Orks for so long has taught him, among other things, that Orks tend to get close, and then they hurt more. Wanting to fortify himself against such a threat, I decide to try and acquire a Force Staff for him; his psy-power is rather high, making the weapon seemingly appropriate, and as melee weapons go, for a PR 5 Psyker, there aren't likely too many better choices. However, I don't know "who he'd inquire with", as the rules describe, nor what other stuff might work in, to make this acquisition  at all likely to succeed. Any run through of how this test, or similar ones, might run, would be very much appreciated. Thanks.



#2 HerraS

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:34 AM

I'll see if I can help you with this one.

For game purposes, all gear acquisitions are made with the Logistics system regardless of whether you actually go fill out some forms for the Munitorum guys or get your stuff through other channels, so who you have to inquire with is up to you / your GM to decide.

First thing you need to figure out is your Logistics Rating. A table of these can be found on pg. 162. Let's assume that as a veteran and a powerful psyker, you're permanently attached to a command squad at the Company level in your regiment making you a Senior Officer with a Logistics Rating of 50.

Next, we need to determine the amount of forces currently gathered on the front, the amount of time the front has been active, and the amount of time your squad has spent on the front. Fighting Orks would necessitate a large amount of forces, so we'll go with Multiple Regiments. A Force Staff's Availability is listed as Extremely Rare, and by looking at page 163 we can see that these two facts combine to give you a starting difficulty of -30 to your Logistics test.

Orks are a tough foe to decisively beat, so let's go with 1-5 years as the amount of time this particular front has been active. We'll also assume that your squad has spent the last 6 to 12 months fighting the Orks. Again on page 163 we can see that the time the front has been active gives you a +20 bonus to your check, while the time your squad has spent fighting gives you a +10 bonus on top of that. Currently we're up to +/- 0.

Lastly we need to decide how the war is going. Orks, again, are a tough enemy to beat, so we'll go with Violent Impasse - both sides have so far fought each other to a standstill. This gives you a penalty of -10 to your check (pg. 163 again). Now we get to our final modifier for your check, which is -10, meaning you have to succeed on a Logistics test against a Logistic Rating of 40 to obtain your Force Staff.

Remember that you can try to make your Logistics test easier by engaging in an opposed Commerce skill test or by trading excess equipment (though the latter is a punishable offence). How this works is explained on page 162.

Changing the amount of forces on the front, the time the front has been active, the time your squad has spent fighting and the war conditions all change the modifiers as shown on page 163. Veterans of a long-lasting war have an easier time acquiring stuff than squads who have just arrived at a completely new warzone.

Hopefully that helped clear things up.



#3 Kasatka

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:30 AM

Other things to consider are that based on the regiment creation options for Scavengers and Penal regiments, there are illegal channels to obtain items through. The book goes into little detail on these but suffice to say that with some sufficient social rolls and time spent finding supply lines that are less than official, you should be able to obtain pretty much anything you want. Of course there may be requirements to access said channels (rescue a trapped squad during a mission to find out one of its members is a fence for stolen goods, save some civilians during a xenos raid and discover that one of them is a truck driver at a local star port and only too happy to help out the guys who saved his life by 'dropping' some supply crates).


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#4 MILLANDSON

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:52 AM

Kasatka said:

Other things to consider are that based on the regiment creation options for Scavengers and Penal regiments, there are illegal channels to obtain items through. The book goes into little detail on these but suffice to say that with some sufficient social rolls and time spent finding supply lines that are less than official, you should be able to obtain pretty much anything you want. Of course there may be requirements to access said channels (rescue a trapped squad during a mission to find out one of its members is a fence for stolen goods, save some civilians during a xenos raid and discover that one of them is a truck driver at a local star port and only too happy to help out the guys who saved his life by 'dropping' some supply crates).

I'm not entirely sure that should work with things on the level of Force Weapons, though. Given their rarity, that most people cannot use them, and ownership of such, even in a trading capacity, would probably make yourself out as a potential rogue psyker, I'm not sure even the most dodgy black-market contact would be able to get hold of something like that.


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#5 Kasatka

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 02:18 AM

So you'd arbitrarily impose a limit on certain character archetypes being able to get hold of their signature gear? I think considering how vague and open ended the Logistics system (and for that matter all of the acquisition systems since they got rid of plain Throne Gelt have been) is. that you should treat everyone equally within it. As i said however, the GM should feel free to require a suitable amount of time, skill tests and roleplaying to go into acquiring such rare items - i just dont think they should arbitrarily block certain things.


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#6 MILLANDSON

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 02:54 AM

No, I'd just not allow certain gear to be found through the black market. I'm fairly certain stuff like Force Weapons, Tempest Bolt Shells, Power Fields, and other stuff that are incredibly rare or almost unique, if they're damn near impossible to find via normal channels, would be easier to find illegally through the Imperial Guard black-market.


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#7 LuciusT

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:34 PM

Kasatka said:

So you'd arbitrarily impose a limit on certain character archetypes being able to get hold of their signature gear?

I take issue with the word "arbitrary" in this instance. I see nothing arbitrary about making exceptions to general rules in specific cases when those exceptions are warrented by the background, setting and general role playing considerations.

Personally, I would make it almost impossible to aquire a Force Staff through the black market (and one you did aquire would provoke the hostile attentions of your commissar or even a nearby Inquisitor, even assuming it wasn't tainted by Chaos). However, I might make is easier for a powerful Imperial psyker to aquire one by approaching the senior regimental psyker (of course, depending on circumstances maybe the regimental psyker wants a bribe or black market favors before issuing it). It all depends on circumstances, roleplaying and interpretation of the background… but it's hardly artbitrary.



#8 Plushy

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 05:18 PM

Just put a cap on anything rarer than Very Rare for it, then.


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#9 MILLANDSON

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:04 AM

LuciusT said:

However, I might make is easier for a powerful Imperial psyker to aquire one by approaching the senior regimental psyker (of course, depending on circumstances maybe the regimental psyker wants a bribe or black market favors before issuing it). It all depends on circumstances, roleplaying and interpretation of the background… but it's hardly artbitrary.

Exactly this - this sort of thing would be easier to get by going through the senior regimental psyker, if any, or through regimental command, since the psyker is a specialist allocated at regimental level.


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#10 venkelos

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:09 AM

So, let's just say that Mikhail goes about this the legal way (he grew up on Cadia, minus the span on Holy Terra/the Black Ships/Scholastica Psykana, and he respects the military, and their necessary rules, for the most part, and doesn't need/want to give anyone ANOTHER reason to hate him; being a Psyker is already enough, in the Imperium, no matter how "good" his life and treatment might seem this day of the week. Say he acquires the Force Staff, I know it isn't "his", but is there a duration for keeping it? Is it just that mission, or is it "keep it till we say we need it." While exceptionally rare and valuable, they aren't exactly in high demand, compared to maybe say plasma pistols, or refractor fields. Can he just hold on to it indefinitely, knowledgeable in the fact that they can always come back later, and recall it, and it's loss prior would be a serious infraction, or must he immediately return it upon that mission's conclusion and return to base, and frequently re-requisition it, if he continues to feel its use is warranted? Sort of makes one miss the Signature Wargear talent, from DW. I wouldn't look to be owning the weapon, as this isn't RT, and even DH/Ascension worked a duration figure into the overall roll, but it could be tedious to have to, before every mission, requisition the same tool, and several times put up with its unavailability, because "some NPC needed it, today."

For a less silly comparison, I can imagine a Sergeant/higher-ranking Officer getting to the point where they take to the field in some quality of storm trooper carapace armor, a plasma pistol, a power sword, and a refractor field (a reasonable, if expensive kit for such a leader, both here and in the table top). Each of these is Very Rare, and so the chances you could fail one of the four Logistics tests is not unreasonable. Would make more sense if they could keep the kit, like the regular kit they have, at least until the GM says the Dept. Mun. called for it back, or if Signature Wargear could be included, allowing you to "add the gear to your kit", barring GM caveat.



#11 venkelos

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:01 AM

Three little dumb follow-ups; first, is there a rule for how many Logistics checks the group can make? If each character wanted three things extra, could each make that many rolls, regardless of success, of course? Second, can Munitorum Influence be taken multiple times, or only once by each player? and then I assume the benefit stacks, if three characters each picked it up, if they roll as a unit. Lastly, and this might be the most important to me, is there an average number for the D.Mun.'s Commerce score? Doing opposed Commerce is fine, for boosting the Logistics check, and I could tell what my character has to roll under, but is there a fair score for the GM's NPC to roll under, to see who gets more DoS/DoF? I'm thinking 30 to 40, if he's not smart as a Commissar, but I thought I'd ask, in case I missed it in the book.



#12 Kasatka

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:59 AM

venkelos said:

Three little dumb follow-ups; first, is there a rule for how many Logistics checks the group can make? If each character wanted three things extra, could each make that many rolls, regardless of success, of course? Second, can Munitorum Influence be taken multiple times, or only once by each player? and then I assume the benefit stacks, if three characters each picked it up, if they roll as a unit. Lastly, and this might be the most important to me, is there an average number for the D.Mun.'s Commerce score? Doing opposed Commerce is fine, for boosting the Logistics check, and I could tell what my character has to roll under, but is there a fair score for the GM's NPC to roll under, to see who gets more DoS/DoF? I'm thinking 30 to 40, if he's not smart as a Commissar, but I thought I'd ask, in case I missed it in the book.

There's no mechanical limit but use common sense and compare it to the rather fleshed out Acquisitions system in Rogue Trader for a good idea.

It's up to the GM if they want a starting group to have any Logistics rolls, or whether they need to get into the game before touching the system. Also remember that as the Logistics rating is a shared resource between all the players, if the same people keep abusing it and massively failing their rolls, intimidating officials, get caught looting etc then the whole squad suffers as it effects their ability to use Logistics.

The Munitorum Influence talent can be taken multiple times, the cost of it increases however. I'm not sure how it works if multiple players want to take it, as the first player to buy it is obviously paying less than subsequent ones, so maybe figuring out a running order for purchasing it to minimize the XP expenditure.

Finally while the average Munitorum official you encounter early on may only have a rating in the 30s to 40s, i'd imagine that later on as you progress up the ranks and are needing to acquire battle tanks and massive ordnance for your regiment, then you'll need to go through senior officials who may have ratings in the 50s or potentially even 60s.


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#13 venkelos

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:24 AM

Kasatka said:

There's no mechanical limit but use common sense and compare it to the rather fleshed out Acquisitions system in Rogue Trader for a good idea.

It's up to the GM if they want a starting group to have any Logistics rolls, or whether they need to get into the game before touching the system. Also remember that as the Logistics rating is a shared resource between all the players, if the same people keep abusing it and massively failing their rolls, intimidating officials, get caught looting etc then the whole squad suffers as it effects their ability to use Logistics.

The Munitorum Influence talent can be taken multiple times, the cost of it increases however. I'm not sure how it works if multiple players want to take it, as the first player to buy it is obviously paying less than subsequent ones, so maybe figuring out a running order for purchasing it to minimize the XP expenditure.

Finally while the average Munitorum official you encounter early on may only have a rating in the 30s to 40s, i'd imagine that later on as you progress up the ranks and are needing to acquire battle tanks and massive ordnance for your regiment, then you'll need to go through senior officials who may have ratings in the 50s or potentially even 60s.

Yeah, there are a few little other things from Rogue Trader I would probably think of borrowing; they were all meant to work together, right pillo? If I had to make some dumb thing up, for a game I may someday run, maybe say that a player could make a number of Logistics checks, pass or fail, equal to their Fellowship bonus; how good are you at this "nicely asking for stuff" thing, anyway.

Could seem weird if a group of 4 players could each take the Mun Influence talent, AND each take it multiple times, but it does get more expensive as you go, so yeah. Also seems weird how, class base only, the two that can most affordably get the talent are Ratlings and Priests. Had expected Sergeant, but they, and several others, do get Fellowship, at least, so I suppose, and this keeps people increasing Logistics by doing stuff right, rather than buying a Talent.

Yeah, I can see those numbers working. I didn't know if you Requisitioned tanks and such, on this game's level, but yeah, the folks in charge of them would probably have a decent Commerce score, especially the Tech-Priests who are maintaining them.

Thanks much for the answers.






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