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Allied and SSU heavy weapons team - a rules clarification from FFG


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#1 felkor

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:46 AM

I had a couple questions about the upcoming heavy weapons teams, and figured I'd share them in the forums in case anyone else had similar questions.

 

Rule Question:
Hi there,

I was wondering if you could answer some questions for the weapons teams - i.e., the squads where there are multiple soldiers all on one base. There seems to be very little in the ways of rules in the rulebooks for them.

I understand if they are at full health, I can fire all their weapons. What if they lose one health? Can I still fire all weapons listed on the card? If not, how do I determine which ones I cannot fire? What about if they lose two health? What is the general rule?
 
Unless specifically stated in the rulebook, a squad with multiple soldiers on a single base may fire all of its weapons until it is eliminated.

In the Operation Hades book, it lists specifically that for the Axis weapon teams, if they're down to one health, they can only fire one of two of their larger weapons. In the Operation Icarus book, it does not list any such rule for the Allied and SSU weapon teams. Does this mean they do not have a similar restriction when the unit's health is lowered?
 
The Allied and SSU weapon teams do not share the same restriction as the Axis weapon teams from Operation Hades. Being a Soldier 1 unit is restriction enough!
 
I hope this has answered your questions. Happy Gaming!


#2 Major Mishap

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:22 AM

Stupid answer, so we now have 1 guy who can fire a HMG, 2x SMG's and 2 shotguns  all at once - pathetic rules.



#3 Kriegschatten

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:29 AM

Major Mishap said:

Stupid answer, so we now have 1 guy who can fire a HMG, 2x SMG's and 2 shotguns  all at once - pathetic rules.

Don't forget how he can attack with three knives and grenades, too!

I know that Dust Tactics hasn't made realism its highest priority, but this is getting a little silly.  Especially since it isn't even consistent across all of the multiple-figures-on-a-base miniatures.

 



#4 Loophole Master

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:44 AM

I would be ok with this rule if they didn't create the specific mechanic for the axis heavy weapon squads. It makes no sense whatsoever for them to function differently from the other squads just because they have higher armor, and it is actually confusing and bound to lead to mistakes.

Oh, Zach…

 

PS: I think in my games I'll allow the axis squads to function just like the allied and ssu ones. The axis single-base squads already have only 2 weapons and 1 knife they can use, why limit it further when the Leathernecks get to fire 9 weapons at once, plus 4 knives?



#5 felkor

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:02 AM

I'm thinking along the same lines as you, Loophole.

The logic doesn't make any sense - it's completely inconsistent with the logic for the rules for the Axis teams.  I almost missed the rule for the Axis teams, simply because they buried it in the fluff for the units for some reason.

I believe technically from the rules standpoint, these teams also can't enter the buildings in the SeeLowe espansion because their base is too big.  (The adjusted rules for structures in Cerberus are specific to say that they apply to the doorways in Cerberus expansion only.)  But, I'm pretty sure they're meant to be able to go into small doorways in Seelowe buildings, so I didn't bother asking that question.

It would have been nice if the rulebooks said *anything* about this new type of unit, other than a little line of text in the fluff for the Axis units.

I'm also pretty sure you can attach heroes to these squads (at least the Axis ones - we have no Armor 1 heroes), but it would be nice to have this explicit in the rules somewhere, referring to these new unit types.



#6 felkor

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:21 AM

Hmm, even more questions come to mind about these guys.
Can they be transported?
If so, how many people do they count as?  The number of figures on the base, or the amount of health they have left?



#7 Major Mishap

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:44 AM

Makes you wonder if anybody even dicusses the rules let alone playtest them.  We have already found dozens of errors in the flying rules and single base units and haven't even played them yet, it's not as if its only a rare hypothetical conundrum unlikely to see play, but some Q's will happen every game.



#8 felkor

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:54 AM

I agree.  The rules issues are building up.  I know it's been mentioned before, but I'll just voice that I think a community-built set of rules that are more consistent and more sensible would be great to have.



#9 Gothik

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:54 PM

I don`t want to undermine Zach position in FFG, but I think he is not a right person to answer questions about Dust Tactics as he is not involved in creating its rules in any way. Let`s leave Dust Warfare issues to him and ask DT rules questions directly to their authors - Olivier Zamfirescu and other guys at Dust Models.



#10 Major Mishap

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:33 PM

Of course, the other question that will go unaswered, why put the whole unit on a single base?  There is no good reason or advantage in doing so, keeping 1 model per base would have created no problem or weirdness in the game, just play the unit like any other.



#11 Lska

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:04 AM

And the mortar or 50 cal would have their own base? And what about the axis weapon teams? The gun would split in 2 ?

#12 felkor

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:04 AM

Have people gotten rules answers from the Dust Models team?  I've sent them a rules question before and never heard back.  I agree, I'd take their word over FFG - I just haven't had luck getting any sort of answers from them.

 



#13 Major Mishap

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:12 AM

Lska said:

And the mortar or 50 cal would have their own base? And what about the axis weapon teams? The gun would split in 2 ?

No problem at all, just stick the mortar on a base with its operator, or even separate.  And there is nothing preventing the Axis heavies being seperate as well, as they are if you take them off the multi base.



#14 SeismicShock

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:04 PM

Major Mishap said:

Of course, the other question that will go unaswered, why put the whole unit on a single base?  There is no good reason or advantage in doing so, keeping 1 model per base would have created no problem or weirdness in the game, just play the unit like any other.

 

probably because paolo thought he could make it look cooler if all the dudes were close in on the gun



#15 Major Mishap

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:12 PM

You shouldn't release models to maybe look cool if it messes up the rules though, and any modelers who do want to make a cool mini-diorama could still do so if they wanted.  You could even make a multi-base where you could remove the models if you wanted to.  To sell them as a on one base as a  Dust Model is fine, but not as dust Tactics where you need individual figures.



#16 mgentile7

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 10:39 AM

With any crew served weapons I have been using very simple rules.

1-Since its a crew served weapon no other weapons can be fired. (Each man has a job to do to make the main weapon function so they cannot fire exra weapons)

2-If its crew is reduced to less than half it cannot be moved.(One or two men could not efficiently move a weapon that normally required 3-4 men to do it, another unit can assist but it would use up its turn to assist.)

Yeah nothing special but they work well so far.



#17 ??!

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:38 PM

felkor said:

I'm also pretty sure you can attach heroes to these squads (at least the Axis ones - we have no Armor 1 heroes), but it would be nice to have this explicit in the rules somewhere, referring to these new unit types.

I just got an official answer from FFG stating that you can attach heroes to the weapon teams.



#18 xBeakeRx

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:50 AM

I haven't played with any of the heavy weapon teams yet, so I'm not the best to answer this, but here's what I would do:

1. If the model has 2 wounds+ remaining, they can fire the primary weapon plus a number of secondary weapons equal to the number of remaining wounds

2.  If the model is reduced to 1 wound, it can only fire one secondary weapon of it's choice (assumed to pick up one of the weapons lying on the ground).

I would also apply these rules universally  across all factions, as I dont think armor rating should constitute a limitation against the Axis.  What you gain in armor rating you pay for in points, so its balanced that way.  Would these house rules solve the issue?






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