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Sacrificing Leia?


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#1 Skychapon

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:30 AM

Hi all,

One interesting question concerning a "classical" combo :
_____________________________________________________________________
Leia Organa :
If this unit leaves play, it is captured by your opponent at any dark side objectives of his choice.
Interrupt: When this unit leaves play, remove all focus token from all cards you control.

_____________________________________________________________________

 

If I use a card (You're My Only Hope, Covering Fire…) to sacrifice Leia, is she really sacrified?
 

_____________________________________________________________________

Rulebook p. 27 :
Sacrifice :
When a player is instructed to sacrifice a card, he
must choose and discard a card in play that he controls
and that matches the requirements of the sacrifice.
If the chosen card does not leave play (i.e. if it is, for
example, saved by an interrupt card), the sacrifice is not
considered to have been made.
_____________________________________________________________________



For me, the sacrifice works because captured cards are out of play, so the constant effect on Leia's card respect the sacrifice rules. The final destination of the card has changed (objective and not discard pile) but the out of play state is still applied.

Am I right?



#2 dbmeboy

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:47 AM

When you sacrifice Leia, she still leaves play even though she is captured instead of discarded, so she still counts as having been sacrificed.  So yes, you are correct - and for all the correct reasons.



#3 Francisco G.

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:59 AM

Yeah, the ability on leia is just changing where she is going from the discard pile to an objective being captured.



#4 Skychapon

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:32 AM

I come again because I'm not sure of my answer :)

Here is the rules when you need to discard a card :

Discarding
The term “discarding” describes the act of removing a
card from a player’s hand, deck, or play area (depending
on the discard instructions) and placing it faceup on the
top of his command deck discard pile. Each player has his
own discard pile.
If multiple cards are discarded simultaneously, their
owner determines the order in which they are placed in
the discard pile.
If a token is discarded or removed, it is returned to the
token pool.
If a Force card is discarded, it is returned to its owner’s
supply of available Force cards.

You need the card in your discard pile to discard a card. Logic!

Then, if I read carefully the rules for sacrificing a unit :

Sacrifice
When a player is instructed to sacrifice a card, he
must choose and discard a card in play that he controls
and that matches the requirements of the sacrifice.
If the chosen card does not leave play (i.e. if it is, for
example, saved by an interrupt card), the sacrifice is not
considered to have been made.

Then, I want to sacrifice Leïa with You're My Only Hope, Leïa is captured and did'nt go my discard pile due to is constant effect. Then, I didn't pay correctly my sacrifice cost because Leïa was not discarded, the sacrifice is not legal, the effect of You're My Only Hope (draw 2 cards) fizzle.

What do you think of that?

I know in Warhammer Invasion, such effect have occured with the legend Volkmar the Grim which a constant effect :

If a unit would enter the discard pile or return to its owner's hand from play, you may insteal put it on the bottom of its ower's deck

In the case of Warhammer Invasion, the sacrifice works because there is an errata :

A unit that is sacrificed or destroyed is removed from play. After a sacrificed or destroyed unit leaves play, it attempts to enter its owner’s discard pile. Volkmar the Grim’s ability intercepts it and places that unit on the bottom of its controller’s deck instead. This replacement does not prevent the unit from being sacrificed or destroyed.



#5 Toqtamish

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:35 AM

Sacrifice requires the card to leave play. Leia is discarded from play. Captured card is not Leia anymore it is just a captured card and captured cards are not in play. 



#6 dbmeboy

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:05 AM

@skychapon: You missed the part of the definition of Sacrifice just past the part you bolded where it defines what would prevent it from counting as a sacrifice.  "If the chosen card does not leave play (i.e. if it is, for example, saved by an interrupt card), the sacrifice is not considered to have been made."  Leia does leave play, so the sacrifice was made.



#7 Surge1000

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:26 AM

@skychapon

 

I agree with Toq and dbmeboy on this one, but more importantly, the rules are not ambiguous in any way regarding this question.  Sacrifice doesn't specify where the card must end up, it simply says you must discard the card.  You discard the card, but it ends up under an objective as a captured card.  If a constant effect said "remove all cards in the discard pile from the game; all discarded cards do not go to the discard pile, they are instead removed from the game," successfully achieving a sacrifice cost would still not be precluded.  The only thing that would definitively preclude the sacrifice from occurring would be an effect that prevented the sacrificed unit from leaving play.



#8 Skychapon

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:25 AM

I am OK with you, guys :) I mean, Leia is discarded but her final destination is "capture at an objectif" and not in the discard pile. The sacrifice scost is paid corretly.

But some people arround me argue that the strict reading of the Discarding rules say : The card need to finish in the discard pile to be effectivly discarded, and so, the sacrifice need the card to be discard to work. Leia didn't go to the discard pile due to his constant effect, she is not successfully sacrified, so the sacrifice cost to play the effect of "You're My Only Hope" is not paid and the effect fizzle.

I hope an errata like Warhammer Invasion will appear in future FAQ to clarify this point for my fellow.

 



#9 Toqtamish

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 03:46 AM

Tell your friends to read Leia's card again. The rules and her card text does not support their argument at all. All that sacrifice requires is for the card to leave play which Leia has done by skipping the discard pile and being captured instead, captured is still out of play.



#10 Toqtamish

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:54 AM

And to add further clarity to my previous statement as well as evidence to help you prove your case with these others note what sacrifice says in the rulebook:

 

sacrifice
When a player is instructed to sacrifice a card, he
must choose and discard a card in play that he controls
and that matches the requirements of the sacrifice.
If the chosen card does not leave play (i.e. if it is, for
example, saved by an interrupt card), the sacrifice is not
considered to have been made.

 

Note that it specifies how the sacrifice can be made invalid is "If the chosen card does not leave play (i.e. if it is, for
example, saved by an interrupt card),"
so since Leia is captured she does fulfill the requirment of having left play as a captured card is not in play as per

 “Out of play” refers to the cards in a player’s hand, his
facedown decks, his discard pile, his edge stack, his
victory pile, and any cards that are captured.

Leia's effect that makes her captured instead of going to the discard pile illustrates why every card game has the Golden Rule

Any text, whether on a card or in this rulebook, that
uses the word “cannot” is absolute and cannot be
countermanded by another effect. In the absence
of the word “cannot,” when text on a card directly
contradicts the text in this rulebook, the card text takes
precedence.






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