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Twist of Fate + Tie Attack Squad


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#1 Ravncat

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:24 PM

How's this resolve? 

I've a feeling this is an FAQ question.

 

Tie attack gets a benefit for a fate card played in an edge battle, but twist of fate resets the edge battle…

Does it get it's bonus or no?

 

 

(Tie attack squad text) During any engagement in which you have placed at least 1 fate card in your edge stack, this unit gains [Unit Damage] and targeted strike.

 

(Twist of Fate text) Cancel this edge battle and the card effects of all other fate cards just revealed. Discard both edge stacks and start a new edge battle.



#2 Tenrousei

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:09 AM

The way that we have played Twist is that it is basically a reset button for an edge battle.  once one is resolved, anything that happened in the first battle, such as edge cards being played, did not happen, so I would say that Twist would NOT satisfy this requirement.


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#3 Andur Saibot

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:40 AM

Actually I would say YES. The way I see, but maybe I'm wrong, ToF resets the egde battle but not the engagement, and the TAS's ability triggers during the whole engagement, independently of how many edge battles there has been.



#4 Holliday88

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:58 AM

Andur Saibot said:

Actually I would say YES. The way I see, but maybe I'm wrong, ToF resets the egde battle but not the engagement, and the TAS's ability triggers during the whole engagement, independently of how many edge battles there has been.

I agree. ToF cancels the edge battle but not the engagement, so therefore does satisfy the requirement of being a fate card in the edge stack.


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#5 LordZKrutor

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:05 AM

Ravncat said:

 

How's this resolve? 

I've a feeling this is an FAQ question.

 

Tie attack gets a benefit for a fate card played in an edge battle, but twist of fate resets the edge battle…

Does it get it's bonus or no?

 

 

(Tie attack squad text) During any engagement in which you have placed at least 1 fate card in your edge stack, this unit gains [Unit Damage] and targeted strike.

 

(Twist of Fate text) Cancel this edge battle and the card effects of all other fate cards just revealed. Discard both edge stacks and start a new edge battle.

 

 

 

Hi,

My opinion is, that you haven´t bonus from first edge battle, because "this unit gains [Unit Damage] and targeted strike." it´s efect and "During any engagement in which you have placed at least 1 fate card in your edge stack" it´s cost (condition). This mean, that ToF cancel this efect.

If you played card in second edge battle you will gain this bonus.

 

Have nice day :)



#6 Skychapon

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:25 AM

LordZKrutor said:

This mean, that ToF cancel this efect.

ToF only cancel effects of Fate card played during the edge battle, not the potential effects of the participating units. In fact, that is ToF that would trigger the effect of Tie Attack Squadron. For me, ToF and Tie Attack Squadron works together.



#7 dbmeboy

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:39 AM

Skychapon said:

LordZKrutor said:

This mean, that ToF cancel this efect.

 

ToF only cancel effects of Fate card played during the edge battle, not the potential effects of the participating units. In fact, that is ToF that would trigger the effect of Tie Attack Squadron. For me, ToF and Tie Attack Squadron works together.

ToF also cancels the edge battle itself, not just the effects of other Fate cards played.  The question becomes, can TIE Attack Squadron's ability "see" the canceled edge battle?  I'm not entirely sure on this one.  I'm leaning towards the combo not working since the edge stack ToF was placed in was canceled… but the rules don't really give us a good definition for what canceling an edge stack means.  I don't even have a good guess for which way design intent was on this one.  For now, I'm sticking with my guess that ToF won't work with TIE Attack Squadron, but I would not be surprised at all to be wrong when the FAQ comes out.



#8 ziggy2000

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:58 AM

A couple of things to note..

TAS says "During any engagement in which you have placed at least 1 fate card in your edge stack, this unit gains [Unit Damage] and targeted strike." (The emphasis is mine). So if the player who owns TAS uses ToF, the effect goes off, but if it's the opponent, it does not. Perhaps this is obvious, but it had not been mentioned before.

Second, the condition for TAS's ability is placing a fate card in the edge stack. This condition has been met as soon as ToF is placed in the edge stack, though the effect is not resolved until it is revealed. Cancelling the edge battle does not negate the fact that a fate card was placed in the edge stack. Since the TAS's effect was not granted by a fate card but by TAS itself, ToF does not remove the effect. So IMHO the effect stays, and TAS retains the ability through the second edge battle and the rest of the engagement. In fact, I would argue that if another fate card was placed in the TAS owner's edge stack during the second edge battle, TAS would gain another [Unit Damage] icon.

 



#9 dbmeboy

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:01 AM

ziggy2000 said:

A couple of things to note..

TAS says "During any engagement in which you have placed at least 1 fate card in your edge stack, this unit gains [Unit Damage] and targeted strike." (The emphasis is mine). So if the player who owns TAS uses ToF, the effect goes off, but if it's the opponent, it does not. Perhaps this is obvious, but it had not been mentioned before.

Second, the condition for TAS's ability is placing a fate card in the edge stack. This condition has been met as soon as ToF is placed in the edge stack, though the effect is not resolved until it is revealed. Cancelling the edge battle does not negate the fact that a fate card was placed in the edge stack. Since the TAS's effect was not granted by a fate card but by TAS itself, ToF does not remove the effect. So IMHO the effect stays, and TAS retains the ability through the second edge battle and the rest of the engagement. In fact, I would argue that if another fate card was placed in the TAS owner's edge stack during the second edge battle, TAS would gain another [Unit Damage] icon.

 

The reason I question whether that's true: the edge stack itself was canceled.  Does the canceled edge stack still count as "your edge stack," which is what TAS cares about?  Who knows.  Canceled edge stacks aren't really defined. 

I definitely disagree that it would gain another [Unit Damage] icon either way via the second edge battle though.  It gains it during an engagement when you place at least 1 fate card, not during each edge battle (for the remainder of the engagement) or something like that.



#10 Rogue 4

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:33 AM

Though I would agree with ziggy, i refer to this and hopes this helps:

 

An effect that is cancelled is simply not executed and has no result.

 

The effect is the edge battle, since it was canceled it was never executed thus TAS does not trigger.

 


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#11 ziggy2000

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:54 AM


dbmeboy said:



 


The reason I question whether that's true: the edge stack itself was canceled.  Does the canceled edge stack still count as "your edge stack," which is what TAS cares about?  Who knows.  Canceled edge stacks aren't really defined. 


I definitely disagree that it would gain another [Unit Damage] icon either way via the second edge battle though.  It gains it during an engagement when you place at least 1 fate card, not during each edge battle (for the remainder of the engagement) or something like that.


 


 


You're totally right about the extra [Unit Damage] icon, I completely ignored the "at least" wording.


On the other hand, it's not the edge "stack" that is cancelled, it is the edge battle. The wording of the card does not in any way cancel the fact that a fate card was placed in an edge stack, and at the time it was placed, it was definitely "your edge stack". The final step in resolving ToF says "Discard both edge stacks and start a new edge battle."  So the stacks are not cancelled, they are discarded, and they remain edge stacks right up to the point they hit the discard piles. There is no need to define a cancelled edge stack, as it does not exist.


The wording on TAS is either a little careless, or very carefully chosen to address a situation like this. Hopefully the FAQ will resolve a lot of issues, either way.


EDIT:



The effect is the edge battle, since it was canceled it was never executed thus TAS does not trigger.



I disagree. The Edge Battle is not an effect. It is an Edge Battle. TAS's ability triggers on placing a fate card in an edge stack. The subsequent Edge Battle being cancelled has no effect on that ability, IMHO.


 



#12 Xenu's Paradox

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:05 AM

Is it participating in an engagement? Yes.
Did you play a fate card during an edge battle this engagement? Yes.

It gets the bonus.



#13 Kordos

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:40 AM



The timing is with TAS in this situation due to some fortunate (and possibly overlooked wording)

as soon as you place a fate card in your edge stack TAS' ability triggers

revealing said fate card - no matter what fate card it is just confirms to your opponent that yes you did place a fate card and are thus not cheating

cancelling that edge battle does not take that trigger way as it has already happened

cancelling the effect of any other fate cards in that edge battle doesn't take that trigger away because again, it has already happened

it doesn't matter what happens in the edge battle - the trigger has already happened and passed and you just need to move on to resolving other fate card or a new edge battle if ToF was played



#14 Ravncat

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:23 AM

Here's a small twist with this ToF question,

If it works as in the above post, Does that mean the trigger lies with the edge battle, or just the engagement?

It seems clear, that you only get 1 bonus, no matter how many fate cards you play in "an edge battle",

but if you have 2 seperate edge batles, (one delineated as cancelled, the other as "new") and you first play ToF,

then play another fate card in the second edge battle - does Tie Attack Squad get a second bonus icon?

 



#15 dbmeboy

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:18 PM

Ravncat said:

Here's a small twist with this ToF question,

If it works as in the above post, Does that mean the trigger lies with the edge battle, or just the engagement?

It seems clear, that you only get 1 bonus, no matter how many fate cards you play in "an edge battle",

but if you have 2 seperate edge batles, (one delineated as cancelled, the other as "new") and you first play ToF,

then play another fate card in the second edge battle - does Tie Attack Squad get a second bonus icon?

 

The problem is there isn't really a trigger (which is part of why this question has proven hard to answer).  TAS just gains the icon and target strike sometime during the engagement if those conditions are met.  A less ambiguous wording would be something like "When you reveal a fate card during an engagement, TAS gains [stuff] (limit once per engagement)."



#16 Surge1000

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:55 PM

I was a part of an intense discussion on this issue in another forum.  In short, I believe we're going to have to wait on a definitive ruling, but I have a strong suspicion that the devs/rules team will eventually rule that yes, TIE Attack Squadron receives its bonus even if the edge battle is cancelled.

 

The conditions precedent (requirements) for the bonus modifier on TIE Attack Squadron are:

a) most obvious, it must be in play and unhindered by any enhancement/effect that would preclude the effect;

b) it must be "during any engagement,"  which specifies when the bonus can occur and establishes a limit for the bonus duration;

c) at least 1 fate card is placed into an edge stack.  <--- Therein lies the point of contention.

 

I can think of two ways in which it could be justified that TIE Attack Squadron keeps the bonus:

1)  The devs/rules team define cancelling an edge battle in a way that does not mean that cards placed in the edge stack of the cancelled battle were not placed.  For example, they could say an edge battle that is cancelled is simply not resolved, but the process of having placed cards in that battle remains unchanged.  The argument that TIE AS does not receive its bonus hinges on declaring that the entire process of the edge battle cancelled by the Twist of Fate is thrown out altogether and treated as if it never occurred.

or

2)  The devs/rules team rule that cancelling an edge battle does imply that it basically never took place at all, BUT they consider "placed at least 1 fate card into the edge stack" a condition precedent satisfied by a singular occurrence (basically, treat it as a cost) as opposed to it being one capable of continuous verifiability (like "during any engagement).  In that case, the instant a fate card was placed into an edge stack, all conditions were met, bonus applies, and that particular condition precedent (placing of at least 1 fate card) is never reassessed (think of it in the way you play cards; once you pay resources for a card, you can't unpay them no matter what else happens in the sequence).

 

 

Again, I'm in wait and see mode on this one.  Currently, there simply isn't enough evidence to make a determination one way or the other so far as I can tell.



#17 Rogue 3

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:15 PM

my 2 cents,

 

like any other "action' once you revel your edge stack any card text kicks in…. so tie attack squad text kicks in as soon as your fate card is shown.

so whether you twist (Meeting the texts condition) or your opponent twists your fate card (ex heat of battle) you get the bonus.



#18 Toqtamish

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:17 AM

I agree that all you need to do is have played a fate card, therefore your own Twist of Fate would activate the ability of Tie Attack Squad.



#19 Surge1000

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:10 AM

 

 

Toqtamish said:

 

I agree that all you need to do is have played a fate card, therefore your own Twist of Fate would activate the ability of Tie Attack Squad.

 

 

 

Like I was saying earlier, I really think the rules team is going to clarify the rules in order for having placed 1 fate card in an edge battle to still allow for the bonus even if the edge battle is cancelled.  The argument against yours is that Twist of fate does two things.  1)  cancel the effects of all other fate cards - at this point, we're still good.  2) cancel the edge battle - uh-oh, now we're in trouble based on potential ruling.  Cancelling the edge battle could make the Twist of Fate cancel itself depending on what it means to cancel an edge battle.  Cancelling in the rulebook is defined as an effect is "not executed…has no result."  But that definition only specifies effects that are cancelled.  What does it mean to treat an edge battle as though it were cancelled (not executed)?  Some argue that placing fate cards is one part of executing an edge battle.  If that is true, then assuming my #2 argument is not accepted by the rules team, the TIE Attack Squadron would not receive its bonus.  Until the rules team clears up what it means to cancel an edge batlle, you can't definitively dismiss the argument that it would not receive the bonus.  I lean toward cancelling the edge battle meaning "no result," rather than lack of execution of the entire process that went along with it.



#20 dbmeboy

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:16 AM

Surge1000 has a good idea of the problems on both sides of this one.  Has anyone submitted this to FFG yet to make sure it's covered in the FAQ?  Perhaps I should go do that now…






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