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Red 5 can't be in the same deck with Trench Run? Wtf? How is this explained?


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#1 videinfra

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:11 PM

Anyone else think it is retarded that Red 5 can't be in the same deck with Trench Run? Thematically that is a major fail. That's like not letting Vader and his lightsaber or Force Choke be in the same deck. Wtf? I know people have been critical of how this game plays out, in that battles are often too abstract, and that it often takes a leap of faith to determine how a battle sequence played out storywise. I think it's a valid criticism and maybe the only thing I consider a weakness of the game, althought maybe it just takes more getting used to. But Red 5 not being able to go on a Trench Run? It's the very first unit, if any at all would be allowed, that should be able to do a Trench Run! How can anyone explain this fail?



#2 Toqtamish

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:35 PM

It's not a "fail" as you say, that combo would be grossly over powered.

Now if you are going to question every thing that is not exactly as it was in the movies or books etc. you are going to have a tough time enjoying this great game.



#3 videinfra

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:00 PM

I don't really think I'm knit picking here, and by the way, I did state actually how much I like this game. It doesn't have to be exactly like the movies, but I really have to argue with you here when something that happened in the movie is not even allowed! The fact is, this game is based on the movies. To forbid something that happens in the movies, makes no sense and starts to not be Star Wars. It's like not allowing Obi-Wan to use the Force.  If you forbid things that are so quintessentially Star Wars, it ceases to be Star Wars. I understand that it would be overpowered, but that just means that it was up to the game designers to find another way to allow it while balancing the game. Heck, don't make a Trench Run card then if that's your last resort. If you forbid Star Warsy things, why even make it a Star Wars game? Now this is just one instance, but it is a fail because this just happens to be the climax of the actual original Star Wars movie! I mean, if it was something minor it wouldn't bother me, but this is the most important scene in the entire movie!



#4 Mr. Doctor

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:39 PM

videinfra said:

I understand that it would be overpowered, but that just means that it was up to the game designers to find another way to allow it while balancing the game.

No. I don't know the first thing about professional game design, but I'm pretty sure it's not "Delay the game an extra year to satisfy entitled fans."



#5 cleardave

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:30 PM

Who's to say there won't be a Rebel card version of Red Five?  We already know we're getting a new Vader persona in the Hoth cycle, so there's clearly a precedent for this to happen.

Maybe you can't do it "now", but you could be able to have Red Five attack the Trench Run in a future expansion.  Heck, in the original Star Wars CCG, multiple personas were all over the place, but even Wedge got two different versions of his X-Wing; Red 2 and Red Squadron 1, both of which work with any persona of Wedge as his matching ship.



#6 cooleo1c

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:53 PM

Executor better have 23 combat icons

#7 Jonnyb815

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:11 PM

Why can't you play TR and red five together?



#8 TGO

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:16 PM

Jonnyb815 said:

 

Why can't you play TR and red five together?

 

 

 

On is in a rebel affiliation only objective set and the other is in a Jedi affiliation only objective set. 



#9 videinfra

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:31 PM

Mr. Doctor said:

videinfra said:

 

I understand that it would be overpowered, but that just means that it was up to the game designers to find another way to allow it while balancing the game.

 

 

No. I don't know the first thing about professional game design, but I'm pretty sure it's not "Delay the game an extra year to satisfy entitled fans."

Got a bit personal quick. I've warmed up to the idea that the action isn't literal, I have no problem with it. But expecting the main cinematic event in the movie to be doable in the game based on the movie does not make me entitled. Unless you're just trolling. 



#10 videinfra

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:41 PM

cleardave said:

Who's to say there won't be a Rebel card version of Red Five?  We already know we're getting a new Vader persona in the Hoth cycle, so there's clearly a precedent for this to happen.

Maybe you can't do it "now", but you could be able to have Red Five attack the Trench Run in a future expansion.  Heck, in the original Star Wars CCG, multiple personas were all over the place, but even Wedge got two different versions of his X-Wing; Red 2 and Red Squadron 1, both of which work with any persona of Wedge as his matching ship.

Great point, and I'm hoping you are right. This is really my only qualm, I've warmed up to the idea that the action isn't literal. But it's the main thematic event in the movie, it should be possible in the game based on it. If any card should be capable, it's Red 5. After all this is even a story arc/event, this is filed under Star Wars drama, not literal capability that I'm griping about. If a Rebel version comes out, that wouldn't make it overpowered I would be perfectly content with that. Not you specifically, but funny how people get so bent out of shape if you critique something in any way at all. I was just surprised at how obvious of a mistake (as is) that this is.



#11 videinfra

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:43 PM

cooleo1c said:

Executor better have 23 combat icons

 

as long as it has a cost of 23. I know you're kidding, but this is not what I'm talking about. Now if Vader is not allowed to be on the ship or in his own meditation chamber, that would be a better analogy.



#12 cleardave

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:55 PM

videinfra said:

Great point, and I'm hoping you are right. This is really my only qualm, I've warmed up to the idea that the action isn't literal. But it's the main thematic event in the movie, it should be possible in the game based on it. If any card should be capable, it's Red 5. After all this is even a story arc/event, this is filed under Star Wars drama, not literal capability that I'm griping about. If a Rebel version comes out, that wouldn't make it overpowered I would be perfectly content with that. Not you specifically, but funny how people get so bent out of shape if you critique something in any way at all. I was just surprised at how obvious of a mistake (as is) that this is.

Part of the issue with this game is that there are some dissenters that criticize the current state of the game for not being able to represent everything we've seen in the movies.  Naturally, there are a lot of things to explore, which would be beyond the scope of a Core Set to solve, so what we got instead of say "A New Hope: The Card Game" was "Star Wars: The Card Game" which splashes in a bunch of themes and ideas from all three movies.

Going back in time to the much-loved Star Wars CCG from Decipher, you couldn't even perform a Trench Run until the first expansion.  Of course in that game, you could totally throw Farm Boy Luke into Red 5 and make it happen, so it was a lot more thematically "correct" in one shot.  In the Core Set, Luke looks to be more Jedi and less Farm Boy, so expect to see another persona of young Skywalker that's Rebel affiliated to show up whenever Red Five for Rebels does.

I know it would have been pretty sweet to use Red Five to engage the Trench Run, and perhaps the day may come when you can do it, but (to quote Aragorn) it is not this day.

In the mean time, I encourage you to dig into the game as it is, and you'll see you can set up situations where you recreate literal movie moments, as well as what if scenarios.  I've already gotten Leia captured, and rescued her the following turn with Han Solo, in a pretty bold attack.  Sometimes I amaze even myself.

Down the line, we know we're getting Hoth over the next 6 months, and if FFG's releases in other LCG's are to be used as reference, expect a "big box" expansion to follow.  Then the pattern would be Force Pack cycle/big box, repeat.

We know from the Rule Book that the likely first two big boxes will be "Edge of Darkness" (which is like a Core Set style build for Smugglers and Scum affiliations) and "The Balance of the Force" (3-4 player rules).

Now, I really don't see a Rebel Red Five showing up in the Hoth cycle, but since Luke does technically fly it out of there, who knows?  It's also just as unlikely that it'll show up in a Smugglers/Scum themed expansion, so I'd say maybe the following Force Pack cycle could be the best bet.  It's a ways off yet, which I know isn't the best news for you, but if there's other aspects of the Star Wars movies you enjoyed beyond Luke blowing up the Death Star, then I'm sure FFG will keep you playing in the mean time.



#13 MarthWMaster

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:11 PM

cleardave said:

 

Now, I really don't see a Rebel Red Five showing up in the Hoth cycle, but since Luke does technically fly it out of there, who knows?

 

 

It's technically not called Red Five by that point, as that was merely the designation used during the Battle of Yavin. Then again, the existing version of the ship does appear in the "Journey to Dagobah" objective set, which is where Luke was going after the Battle of Hoth. But doesn't that very fact make a Dagobah-bound Red Five successor this early on superfluous?


"To play a wrong note is insignificant. To play without passion is inexcusable."
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#14 Xenu's Paradox

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:48 PM

cleardave said:

In the Core Set, Luke looks to be more Jedi and less Farm Boy, so expect to see another persona of young Skywalker that's Rebel affiliated to show up whenever Red Five for Rebels does.

I'm expecting Rebel Luke in Desolation, to go with Navy Vader. Then Rebel Red Five in Dark Time, along with (IhopeIhopeIhope) the Executor.



#15 videinfra

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:55 PM

cleardave said:

videinfra said:

 

Great point, and I'm hoping you are right. This is really my only qualm, I've warmed up to the idea that the action isn't literal. But it's the main thematic event in the movie, it should be possible in the game based on it. If any card should be capable, it's Red 5. After all this is even a story arc/event, this is filed under Star Wars drama, not literal capability that I'm griping about. If a Rebel version comes out, that wouldn't make it overpowered I would be perfectly content with that. Not you specifically, but funny how people get so bent out of shape if you critique something in any way at all. I was just surprised at how obvious of a mistake (as is) that this is.

 

 

Part of the issue with this game is that there are some dissenters that criticize the current state of the game for not being able to represent everything we've seen in the movies.  Naturally, there are a lot of things to explore, which would be beyond the scope of a Core Set to solve, so what we got instead of say "A New Hope: The Card Game" was "Star Wars: The Card Game" which splashes in a bunch of themes and ideas from all three movies.

Going back in time to the much-loved Star Wars CCG from Decipher, you couldn't even perform a Trench Run until the first expansion.  Of course in that game, you could totally throw Farm Boy Luke into Red 5 and make it happen, so it was a lot more thematically "correct" in one shot.  In the Core Set, Luke looks to be more Jedi and less Farm Boy, so expect to see another persona of young Skywalker that's Rebel affiliated to show up whenever Red Five for Rebels does.

I know it would have been pretty sweet to use Red Five to engage the Trench Run, and perhaps the day may come when you can do it, but (to quote Aragorn) it is not this day.

In the mean time, I encourage you to dig into the game as it is, and you'll see you can set up situations where you recreate literal movie moments, as well as what if scenarios.  I've already gotten Leia captured, and rescued her the following turn with Han Solo, in a pretty bold attack.  Sometimes I amaze even myself.

Down the line, we know we're getting Hoth over the next 6 months, and if FFG's releases in other LCG's are to be used as reference, expect a "big box" expansion to follow.  Then the pattern would be Force Pack cycle/big box, repeat.

We know from the Rule Book that the likely first two big boxes will be "Edge of Darkness" (which is like a Core Set style build for Smugglers and Scum affiliations) and "The Balance of the Force" (3-4 player rules).

Now, I really don't see a Rebel Red Five showing up in the Hoth cycle, but since Luke does technically fly it out of there, who knows?  It's also just as unlikely that it'll show up in a Smugglers/Scum themed expansion, so I'd say maybe the following Force Pack cycle could be the best bet.  It's a ways off yet, which I know isn't the best news for you, but if there's other aspects of the Star Wars movies you enjoyed beyond Luke blowing up the Death Star, then I'm sure FFG will keep you playing in the mean time.

I did actually play the Decipher game, but got in on the tail end which is why I'm so excited about this one. I know people have been overly critical about the lack of literal battling, but I am not in that camp. It is a bit odd sometimes, but once you think of it more as you are almost vying for influence over the larger picture, it's not so bad. Plus, I like that there is constant interaction, rather than one person doing something in space and the other person playing on the ground without ever really interacting which would sometimes happen in SWCCG. I didn't think about different versions of Red 5, but just for characters. I think it just seemed odd to me that Red 5 would even be in a Jedi deck (as well as the droids). But with the amount of expansions they already have lined up, you're right, it looks like there are tons of versions in store for the future. I didn't know about a Hoth version of Vader. Do you have a link to him?



#16 MarthWMaster

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:20 AM

videinfra said:

 

I didn't think about different versions of Red 5, but just for characters. I think it just seemed odd to me that Red 5 would even be in a Jedi deck (as well as the droids).

 

 

Consider: it's a ship famous for the one-in-a-million shot that destroyed the Death Star, and the young Jedi pilot who switched off his targeting computer before taking that shot. And the droids are his property.


"To play a wrong note is insignificant. To play without passion is inexcusable."
– Beethoven

#17 cleardave

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:19 AM

MarthWMaster said:

Consider: it's a ship famous for the one-in-a-million shot that destroyed the Death Star, and the young Jedi pilot who switched off his targeting computer before taking that shot. And the droids are his property.

Well, technically, as of Episode IV, doesn't R2D2 mention that he (and 3P0? I can't remember if R2 included 3P0) is the property of Obi-Wan Kenobi, so Luke is ultimately returning them to Old Ben, who then later dies, so Luke inherits them in the third act?

Anyways, to be realistic, when we see a Rebel Luke X-Wing pilot type, I'm sure it'll lead to a Rogue 1 type X-Wing to account for the Rogue Squadron days long before we see a Rebel affiliated Red 5.  By that time in the continuity, his designation would have changed.

BUT, would they have made him the commander of his own flight squadron the day after nuking the Death Star?  So there's still some room for a Rebel Red 5 down the line, or some other card ability that may appear in the future that allows some kind of workaround to have Jedi Red Five and Rebel Trench Run in the same deck, without making "another" Red Five card.



#18 DailyRich

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:10 AM

Thing is, I don't want to be tied down to having Red Five HAVE to follow Luke everywhere.  Or Luke always having Artoo and Threepio.  I've seen that for over 35 years now.  I'd much rather the game worry about invoking the spirit of the franchise than exactingly recreate every last moment.



#19 carolina_bryan

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:36 AM

I understand to an extent.  I toyed with the idea of putting a Han, Leia, Obi, Luke deck together just for giggles.  But ultimately I think everyone is right when they say "just wait for it."  Pretty sure expansions will give us a Rebel Red Five.

Also, when the multiplayer rules are released, its at least possible that these two cards could "work together" in the same game, from a certain point of view.



#20 Mr. Doctor

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:02 AM

videinfra said:

Got a bit personal quick. I've warmed up to the idea that the action isn't literal, I have no problem with it. But expecting the main cinematic event in the movie to be doable in the game based on the movie does not make me entitled. Unless you're just trolling. 

No, expecting the devs to have reworked their plans based on your personal opinion of what the most important scene in the movie is.






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