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Can you play a Jedi


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#1 Hrathen

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:49 AM

I have been a super Star Wars fan my whole life.  I already own a couple of older Star Wars RPGs.  I am excited for a new one (assuming it is better than the two I already own)  But I am not supper excited about breaking it up into 3 different role playing games.  I like the break up for the 40K stuff, but I am not sure if I like the idea for Star Wars. 

This brings me to my main question.  Can you play a Jedi? Nothing I have read suggest you can.  Maybe playing Jedi will be its own game latter on.

 

 


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#2 KommissarK

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:07 AM

As long as the new book doesn't deviate too far from what is in beta, there are rules on the use of the force. They only cover advancing a character to a very limited force sensitive state, but are indeed there. There are rules for a lightsaber, but the actual means of learning the lightsaber skill are obfuscated (no class can naturally learn how to use the weapon, needs GM fiat).

All the rules are there to support jedi (in other words, its a matter of building a list of talents/abilities and such that = jedi). But no, there is no specific "Jedi" class.

Personally I'm quite OK with the splitting of the content. Jedi represent a fairly "high level" of Star Wars play, and to create a system keyed to that initially would make those who don't wish to play Jedi in an annoying place.  Also, the further mechanics that could be added into a "Jedi centric" system (lightsaber forms, oodles of powers, a more fleshed out light/dark side system) would take up quite a bit of space next to the sorts of things that cover the other parts of society.



#3 Inksplat

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:21 AM

As pointed out, yes, you can play a Empire Strikes Back-level Luke-type Jedi with EotE pretty easily. Prequel Jedi wouldn't quite be there, but you're only missing a few little things.

To answer your other question, yes, there will be a book dedicated to Jedi. First book is Outer Rim, second book is Rebels and Soldiers, third book is Force Users.



#4 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 10:41 AM

Hrathen said:

I have been a super Star Wars fan my whole life.  I already own a couple of older Star Wars RPGs.  I am excited for a new one (assuming it is better than the two I already own)  But I am not supper excited about breaking it up into 3 different role playing games.  I like the break up for the 40K stuff, but I am not sure if I like the idea for Star Wars. 

This brings me to my main question.  Can you play a Jedi? Nothing I have read suggest you can.  Maybe playing Jedi will be its own game latter on.

Oh boy, here we go again… (sorry, but this question caused a lot of extremely "heated" talk in the Beta forum)

In short, it's really going to depend on how you define "Jedi."

Can you play a character that starts out with a lightsaber and awesome Force Powers?  Nope.  Lightsabers (at least in the Beta rules) are incredibly powerful and ludicriously expensive (you can buy starships for less money).  There's not even a Jedi "class" to be found, and FFG has been pretty clear and up front that Jedi and related themes are not going to be a feature of Edge of the Empire.

However, what you can play is an untrained/self-taught Force-Sensitive who will eventually develop into a capable Force-user, but it's going to cost a lot (and I do mean a lot) of experience points to get to that point, and even then you're about on par with a Jedi Padawan in terms of your ability to use the Force.

FFG has said (during the GenCon 2012 announcement of the RPG line) that they plan on doing 3 core rulebooks, with Edge of the Empire being the first and focusing on Han Solo style characters; if you've seen Firefly, that's pretty close to the feel of what FFG is aiming for.

The second core rulebook, slated for 2014, will focus on the Rebellion and taking the fight to the Empire.

The third and final core rulebook, slated for 2015, is currently going by the title "Force and Destiny," and this is the book that will fully delve into Jedi and the Force.

So, if you want' full-blown Jedi and Force badassery, you're going to be stuck waiting to 2015.

There's a few folks, myself included, that are working on varying degrees of homebrew material to patch at least low-level Jedi (and some other Force-using traditions) into Edge of the Empire, so that the option is available, even if only on an unofficial level.


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#5 Sturn

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:40 AM

Excellent synopsis Donovan. Nothing else to be said.



#6 I. J. Thompson

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 12:46 PM

Hats off to FFG for taking this approach, in my opinion. :)



#7 venkelos

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:23 AM

I would say no, but I would have to confess to being at least partly wrong. Numerous things are absent, because they'll flesh out a later book, and would have made this one a robust, Pathfinder+, beat something to death with it tome of a book, and as much as I whined about the absence of Jedi, on the beta forum, I can appreciate them, at least in my opinion, taking the most powerful, potentially unbalancing part of the system, setting it aside, and saying lets make everything else EVERYONE will need to make this game work actually work, first, and once the structure is stable, add the Jedi Tower to the castle proper. It also gives them considerably more time to shape things, without us all waiting two years for any book, and gives Disney the chance to Pac-Man the whole EU part of Star Wars, wipe away the crumbs and implement its own "what comes after Episode 6" plan, and let that book relect it, instead of the material we all already know.

It does have ruimentary Force powers, and you CAN make them a biit better than rudimentary, if you wish. The power to use it is capped at 2, minus GM fiat, and the lightsaber, while still a rather wonderful cheese pole, is both rather difficult to use properly (only Untrained, unless your GM says otherwise), and even more difficult to acquire, so you may want to emulate a more Kyle Katarn-esque Force-wielder, who has the Force, but keeps it as a last resort, and focuses more on the tried and true, and much safer to display in public, humble blaster, rather than some fancy, ancient weapon, in a age where melee is quaint, and Indiana Jones will just shoot you, after you do your little exhibition.

There aren't many active Jedi in the era, so finding another to learn from, if you would wish to, is highly unlikely.

Thankfully, in a few years, the setting will broaden, and one might be able to more easily play in other times and locations, and the Force will again wax strong, but till then, it's doable, but you might want to focus on something else, or something in-between.



#8 TiLT

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:44 AM

I. J. Thompson said:

Hats off to FFG for taking this approach, in my opinion. :)

Indeed! This way of making the game solves the problem no other Star Wars RPG has solved before: How to balance Jedi against other types of characters. The answer FFG came up with "you don't". When the Jedi book finally appears, it will probably have a section talking about how to integrate characters from the other books into a Jedi campaign, and it will probably say that these characters should have X amount of XP to be at a level that can at all be comparable. 

Let's face it: Jedi rarely if ever went on missions along with non-Jedi in the canon anyway. Luke stayed with the others, as a force-sensitive farmboy (which Edge of the Empire supports anyway) until the beginning of The Empire Strikes Back, when he went off on his own and never really rejoined the others. In the prequels, the Jedi operated completely on their own. In the few situations where non-Jedi featured prominently, they were either there for politics or as an enemy (Jango Fett). 

Jedi going on missions along with non-Jedi is something we expect because of A New Hope and some EU material that was likely inspired by West End Games' somewhat unbalanced approach anyway. Keeping Jedi separate from everyone else seems to be the way Star Wars works best, and FFG has been able to put aside their expectations and see this for themselves. 



#9 HappyDaze

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 06:36 PM

TiLT said:

Indeed! This way of making the game solves the problem no other Star Wars RPG has solved before: How to balance Jedi against other types of characters. The answer FFG came up with "you don't". When the Jedi book finally appears, it will probably have a section talking about how to integrate characters from the other books into a Jedi campaign, and it will probably say that these characters should have X amount of XP to be at a level that can at all be comparable. 

They haven't solved the problem. Not yet. They didn't say' "you don't" - they said "wait and see" which doesn't mean that they even have their final answer figured out yet.

And that worries me, because that's how the WH40K lines developed without being fully compatible with one another. I do not want the same thing to happen with the SW lines. I need them to be 100% compatible even if that just means higher powered options come in at higher xp levels. Do not give me a constantly evolving base ruleset - and that means that Force powers introduced in EotE need to set the pattern for the Jedi that will come later.


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#10 Solardream

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 07:31 PM

I'm actually not here to ask about those daft force users (Jedi or Sith, they're both wrong and single-minded. Grey forever!)

That's common sense and you all answered it.

I'm actually more curious about the second 'core' book. Because I have a question in a similar vein…will the Empire (it's military structure, etc) be playable, for those who want an Imperial campaign. I reliase that limits it to mostly Humans, droids and some near-Humans that the Empire…tolerates.

But one thing I always loved to do was play a 'Rebeliion'-era character that comes form the Empire. Not the cruel-hearted nazi-esque gits that are mis-represented by Rebel propaganda, but the common Imperial pilot, soldier, officer that has had the family serving in the 'military' (Republic Navy to Imperial Navy) for most of thier heritage. The regime might have changed, but the job didn't, (Best example of this is the old game TIE Fighter. You're not evil. You're just a pilot fighting for what you reckon is right and involved in the politics of the Empire.)

All I'm typing here is just to not forget those on the non-rebel (or neutral) side of the fence, and that not all of them are the 'bad guys', or at least not on purpose. At the least, a sourcebook for Imperial services to go with the Rebellion core book, would be greatly appreciated (and purchased!).

Aye if you couldn't tell, I'm pro-Imperial. There's a reason the New Republic didn't last long (besides invasions), and why the Galactic Empire still exists (sans insane Emperor, and even complete with alien stormtroopers and officers, that can actually shoot!) in the Expanded Universe of the future generations in the Star Wars Timeline: The Empire endures.



#11 William Starbrand

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 10:11 PM

So you have gone back to first principle with this newest edition of Star Wars RPG. The story premise is the same as when West End Games started, with the original trilogy between New Hope and the Empire Strikes Back. The Empire is strong, rebels are smal but gaining strength, and no real jedi to speak of except for Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda.

I am excited to see the finished product, but when's the release date? I think it's silly that I can download the EotE dice app from google play, and not even have the game to use it with.

V/r,

William Starbrand



#12 WildKnight

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:53 AM

I know that I'm probably unusual in this, but I truly hope that they don't present Jedi as "high level."  As far as I'm concerned, that's pretty blatantly nonsense, based on the evidence of the movies.  The majoriity of the Jedi were wiped out by "mundane" threats such as groups of clone troopers.  Only the most dangerous/powerful Jedi are vastly more powerful than the other inhabitants of the galaxy…  and I would argue that any warrior with a similar level of experience, well-equipped, should be equally dangerous. 

I will be seriously disappointed of Jedi are presented as inherently superior in the way that the Space Marines were presented as superior to Inquisitors (for instance) in WH40K.  It might work for 40K, I'm no expert on the setting, but I don't want a Star Wars Galaxy where everyone should be cowering at the feet of a few powerful force users.  That's never how I perceived things based on the movies, and that's definitely not how I want to play my games (and in fact, is the reason I avoid Star Wars video games like the plague)



#13 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:30 AM

WildKnight,

I'd disagree with you, based just on what we see in the movies alone.  Luke in RotJ (a barely-trained Jedi who'd yet to become a Knight) was largely able to solo the "encounter" on Jabba's Sail Barge, with Princess Leia offering a bit of help and Han getting a lucky attack roll due to being mostly-blind.

As for Jedi being taken out by groups of Clone Troopers, let's consider their targets.

Aayla Secura - Shot & killed from behind with the element of surprise, hardly a "fair fight"

Plo Koon - Was pretty much unaware he was being shot at until it was too late (already been hit, again not a "fair fight")

Ki-Adi Mundi - it took quite a few hits from a signifcant amount of massed fire to take him down.

Storming of the Jedi Temple - you've mostly got younglings/children and junior-level Padawans (maybe equal to starting PCs).  Vader's also tagging along to take out any serious Jedi threats like Cin Drallig who could easily deal with 'measly' Clone Troopers.

Now consider your average adventurer, such as the likes of Han Solo, Princess Leia, or pre-ESD Luke Skywalker against similar odds.

It's been made pretty clear that in a "fair fight" where the Jedi knows the danger is coming, the advantage is to the Jedi.  Put Han or Leia or pre-ESB Luke (all sans their plot armor; i.e. regular PCs) in the exact same situation that Ki-Adi Mundi found himself in (out in the open with no cover), pretty sure those would get dropped even quicker than Mundi did.  And they'd certainly not fair any better than Aayla or Plo Koon in those particular situations.

Note that aboard the Death Star, the Heroes of Yavin stuck to stealth as much as possible, and running away when stealth wasn't an option.  Only Han was brazen enough to charge at a group of stormtroopers, but that was more a surprise tactic and the troopers thinking it was more than just one guy charging after them with a Wookiee lagging far behind.  And when the jig was up and the stormtroopers realized that Han was just one man… well, the mighty Solo let out a cry of fright and started hauling ass in the opposite direction.  Meanwhile, we've seen Jedi Knights take on similar, if not worse, odds and come out on top.

So generally speaking, there's a boatload of canon of varying degrees that shows that in many cases, a trained Jedi is better than a regular person of similar or even greater experience.  Compare ANH versions of Luke and Han to the RotJ versions of Luke and Han.  In both cases, Han's been at the "adventurer" gig a lot longer than Luke has, but by RotJ Luke is capable of going one-on-one with Darth Vader and not getting slaughtered outright, where Han would have about the same odds as he did in ESB against the Dark Lord of the Sith.

I'm not saying there needs to be huge difference in the level of power between Jedi and non-Jedi, but rather that there is going to be a difference.  Best thing FFG can do is try to ensure their game system is as stable and functional as possible before pulling back the curtain on a character type that has a history of pushing prior Star Wars game systems up to and beyond their breaking point.


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#14 WildKnight

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:43 AM

You see, I would use the sail barge as an example of what a PC can do against a bunch of minions.  Han Solo, not Luke Skywalker, took out the only credible threat in that fight (Boba Fett).  Luke took out one of Boba Fett's many weapons, but didn't stick around to fight…  and that's Luke at the tail end of a long "campaign." 

The other "PCs" in that situation were working with significant disadvantages, except Lando, who clearly had a rash of bad rolls.  Han was blind, Leia & Chewie were bound.  Oh, speaking of Leia…  she ALSO took out a significant threat while Luke was mowing down mooks and nameless schlubs.  Even R2 succeeded in injuring a "named" character (admittedly, a kowakian monkey lizard…  but he had a name!).

You disregard the deaths of the various Jedi (only referencing the ones we see on-screen, which in itself is ridiculous…  we know that the vast majority of Jedi were killed by clone troopers that day) by using the excuse that they were surprised, yet we are told that super-human reflexes is a basic talent that all Force Sensitive types have, even without Jedi training.

In the end I think you're very busy trying to justify Jedi super-dominance by pointing out scenes where they took on hordes of nameless minion types, while disregarding the fact that Obi-Wan struggled with Jango, Luke was bound by Boba, etc.

Of course Han Solo isn't a match for Luke in a straight-up fight.  Han Solo isn't a fighting machine.  Luke is.  The question isn't whether Luke would best Han in a one-on-one fight, the questions are whether Luke is all-around more competent than Han in every possible facet of existence (as Jedi are usually presented in the EU), and whether Luke has that kind of edge against someone who has spent the kind of time Luke has in intense, non-Force combat training. 

The Star Wars Galaxy should be big enough for people without glow sticks to make an impact.



#15 Kallabecca

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:50 AM

William Starbrand said:

So you have gone back to first principle with this newest edition of Star Wars RPG. The story premise is the same as when West End Games started, with the original trilogy between New Hope and the Empire Strikes Back. The Empire is strong, rebels are smal but gaining strength, and no real jedi to speak of except for Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda.

I am excited to see the finished product, but when's the release date? I think it's silly that I can download the EotE dice app from google play, and not even have the game to use it with.

V/r,

William Starbrand

Well, the dice app can be used for Beta, Beginners and the X-wing games currently, as well as other games that need "regular" polyhedral dice. And the release date is probably not set since the book probably hasn't headed off to the printers yet, so Q2 Spring 2013 is all they've given.



#16 bobfrankly

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:42 AM

While I haven't played the old systems, I have seen some PbP examples of how overpowering Jedi can be compared to non jedi classes. The same was often true in the SW Miniatures (which I did play). While there will be those who want those OP'd Jedi powers, there will be those who don't. It would be nice if FFG could classify force powers and thier ranks according to how they would fare compared to their non-force wielding party members. That would help us GMs so we could state: "You can level force abilities to tier 1"  to keep them generally in line with the rest of the party, tier 2 being powers like a PC and a half, and tier 3 being anything above. However I also understand that balancing that within a system of multiple powers would not be a simple task, and I wouldn't envy whoever's job it became to try to institute such a system.

Another thought would be for force users being able to utilize combat force abilites only every other round or so, restricting those abilities to be similar to grenades or other throwaway equipment. From what I viewed previously, there were limits on how frequently force skills could be used, but it was all too easy to replensh them, so the limits were ineffective. Force users used up their abilites destroying their foes, but replenished a good portion of their abilities (if not all) inbetween encounters. It is a balancing act though because players are spending their experience points on these abilities, to take the ability away after one or two uses can be frusterating to the players.

This considered, what about force powers that have a basic level usage, that would align closely with a regular PC's abilities. The basic use would be lightly limited, or not at all. Add in the overpowered version. You can use the OP version as a single large hit, but you sacrifice all access to the power for a time. Kind of like overloading your blaster for an explosion, You get past the large obstacle, but you'll need a new blaster. Jedi PC could use "move object" to throw pebbles or pull a key to him at a basic level, but moving a boulder or X-Wing would block access to "move object" for the rest of the day (or whichever time range would be correct for game balance.

Any thoughts on this?



#17 Donovan Morningfire

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:34 AM

WildKnight said:

The Star Wars Galaxy should be big enough for people without glow sticks to make an impact.

And it already is, as there are plenty of non-Jedi examples of characters making an impact.

But whether you like it or not, the Star Wars canon (something FFG has to at least keep in mind) constantly shows that Jedi (especially the trained variety who've made Knighthood) are more powerful than the non-Force-using community.  Saying that "Luke's a fighting machine but poor Han isn't" is a cop-out.  Han knows he's best off not getting into a straight-up fight, and plans accordingly.  As for Fett, it wasn't like he was fresh as a daisy when Han got a lucky shot in; Fett had been blasted to the ground by a deflected blaster cannon shot just a bit earlier; Luke didn't "finish him off" becuase there were more immediate threats (those guys on the other skiff that were armed and attacking) and Fett wasn't moving.

As for you remark about "what about all those Jedi that died off-screen?," they died off-screen.  In other words, they weren't important to the plot, something that (under a compentent GM at least) should never happen to the PCs.

But I'm dropping this subject, as I don't want to see this thread de-rail into a pointless flame war.


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#18 KommissarK

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:16 AM

Its been a while since I've read the book, but just to kind of help explain why a "high level" jedi could still be gunned down -

because autofire and hordes of enemies is still quite dangerous in this system. Combine that with it being a surprise attack, and a galaxy spanning influence of the dark side (ref the entire notion that Palpatine was able to obfuscate the future from the jedi), it is reasonable to see how this system could cover that.

 

Also, as others have stated, that the jedi were killed off screen, they were not plot important. EotE is a highly narrative system (simulationists beware), and plot importance is an extremely useful trait to have in this game.



#19 TiLT

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:48 AM

WildKnight said:

yet we are told that super-human reflexes is a basic talent that all Force Sensitive types have, even without Jedi training.

We are? When exactly? I've been a massive Star Wars junkie since the West End Games period, but I can't remember any mention of that. On the other hand, the Jedi ability to see into the immediate future is mentioned often, and it tends to be this that they use to create the illusion that their reflexes are inhuman. It goes without saying that the Jedi who were slaughtered when Palpatine betrayed them (and not all of them were. Some escaped alive, only to be killed later by Vader) weren't actively using their abilities right then because they simply weren't expecting anything lke that to happen. Simply put, their abilities were either not focused at all, or were focused at what they perceived to be the enemy. Only Yoda is shown being able to sense something wrong in his allies, and he is typically presented as one of the most powerful Jedi of his time. 

You make the basic mistake of assuming that Luke isn't powerful in ROTJ because his target selection might not be ideal. He's shown plowing through all opposition, so that would be a big mistake. Luke was immensely powerful at that time, yet even that was a far cry from the power of a fully trained Jedi in the Old Republic era. There is simply no situation in the movies where a regular person is shown to be the equal of a Jedi. The closest we get is when Jango Fett fights them, but he fights dirty, has the element of surprise, and has technological superiority. Once he gets into a straight fight later on, Mace Windu wins effortlessly. 

I'm no big fan of making characters superhuman because they're "cool" either (I'm not a big fan of Space Marines as protagonists in stories, or characters like Drizzt Du'orden), but in the case of the Jedi they are repeatedly and unquestionably shown as much more powerful than non-Jedi. Does that mean that a Jedi can't be surprised or can't be killed by massive force? Of course not! They need to be using their powers to be powerful. If they don't, they are merely human. That's what made Palpatine win. He manipulated the situation to such an extent that the Jedi trusted the Clone Troopers and were used to fighting alongside them. There was nothing that could have prepared them for what was about to happen. Just look at the way Cody betrays Obi-Wan in Episode 3. Nothing could have prepared him for that, as Cody was totally loyal mere seconds earlier. 

It's completely fine if you don't want to include super-powerful Jedi in your campaigns, but don't make the mistake of assuming that such a solution would reflect the canon. The Jedi are such a powerful entity, both alone and as a group, that they are outside the reach of most politicians, and the presence of a single Jedi in wartime can turn the outcome completely around (as we see in the Clone Wars cartoon repeatedly). But you must also not make the mistake of thinking that "powerful" means "undefeatable". Palpatine found the flaw in their defenses and exploited it without mercy, and he won because of it, at least for a time. 



#20 KommissarK

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:10 AM

TiLT said:

WildKnight said:

yet we are told that super-human reflexes is a basic talent that all Force Sensitive types have, even without Jedi training.

 

We are? When exactly?

Sounds like a specific reference to how Qui-Gon references Anakin's reflexes when the topic of pod-racing comes up in Ep1. Its mentioned in other material that humans actually don't particpate in pod-racing due to sub-par reflexes.

That said, that level of ability is indeed covered in EotE and is not "high level" at all. So I'm not really seeing the issue here.

Note that when I brought up the notion, I meant it more that a full jedi knight is indeed of a higher level of ability than the starting PCs of EotE who basically begin the game at a level of ability just slightly below the main cast of Ep4.

I did not mean it as much as saying that jedi = epic level or something, just that I want to point out a jedi level character has a significant advantage over the starting EotE character. And its meaningful to notice that difference. The point is that I respect that the game starts at a lower power level than jedi. If it made starting non-jedi PCs equal to jedi, they would need to hand over a significant portion of XP. Note that in this game, that much XP is still only going to equal a small set of bonuses (maybe a few talents, boosting a few core skills/abilities, maybe learn a few specializations).






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