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Night Beast, Stress and Green Maneuver


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#1 chrisdk

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:05 AM

Hi everyone,

 

I have posted the following question to Boardgamegeek and since the discussion over there is very interesting but far from truly conclusive apparently, I would like to see if there is more to be found out in this esteemed circle, so here we go:

 

"Night Beast" performed a Red Maneuver and received stress.
Next Round he performed a Green Maneuver to remove the stress. Does he ALSO get the Free Action to Focus from his ability for performing the green maneuver?
Or does he only get that, when he performs a green maneuvre without having any stress beforehand, because the stress prevents even free maneuvres and (at least according to wording in the german rules) is only removed after the Green Maneuver.



#2 mrfroggies

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:20 AM

The question is which happens first, removing the stress token or taking the focus token.  How I've always played it is that Night Beast is able to focus.  It is your ship and you get to chose the order of when things are done in that activation phase.  Here's how I see it.

  1. Reveal Dial
  2. Set Template
  3. Execute "Green" Maneuver
  4. Check Pilot stress.  This is the part where everything happens.  Night Beast's ability is worded like this. "After Executing a green Maneuver, you may perform a free focus action."  This is also the time where you would remove the Stress token from your ship.  It's my opionion that you are able to choose the order in which things happen in this phase.  You remove the stress token, and then place the focus token on Night Beast.  
  5. Clean up templates and dials
  6. Perform actions.

I couldn't find a specific instance in the rules that supports, or detracts from my answer.  The timing of things is correct, but there is room for interpretation.  All I can say is that I've always played that Night Beast gets the Focus action, and that's how I will continue to play it until there is an errata that spells it out.

 



#3 chrisdk

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:36 AM

mrfroggies said:

The question is which happens first, removing the stress token or taking the focus token.  How I've always played it is that Night Beast is able to focus.  It is your ship and you get to chose the order of when things are done in that activation phase.  Here's how I see it.

  1. Reveal Dial
  2. Set Template
  3. Execute "Green" Maneuver
  4. Check Pilot stress.  This is the part where everything happens.  Night Beast's ability is worded like this. "After Executing a green Maneuver, you may perform a free focus action."  This is also the time where you would remove the Stress token from your ship.  It's my opionion that you are able to choose the order in which things happen in this phase.  You remove the stress token, and then place the focus token on Night Beast.  
  5. Clean up templates and dials
  6. Perform actions.

I couldn't find a specific instance in the rules that supports, or detracts from my answer.  The timing of things is correct, but there is room for interpretation.  All I can say is that I've always played that Night Beast gets the Focus action, and that's how I will continue to play it until there is an errata that spells it out.

 

 

Well, I guess it boils down to interpreting what "after executing a Green Maneuver" is supposed to mean for timing.

Either

A) Should it mean "immediately as part of Step 3 and before going to step 4" or "immediately after Step 3, but still before Step 4"?

In either of these cases the stress token is still present and prevents taking the free action to focus.

Or

B) should it mean "after completing Step 3, as part of Step 4"?

In this case I would agree with you that it's the player's choice which of the two to resolve first and hence he gets his free action.

 

I do not see anything in the rules or FAQ or the wording that favors either interpretation. Personally I would say that A) is the more "natural" interpretation of the wording, but what with me not being a native speaker and having been wrong on such before, I wouldn't want to bet money on what was the design intention.



#4 mrfroggies

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:49 AM

Night Beast's ability doesn't say "immediately" on it.  It says After executing a green maneuver.  I would say that it happens in step 4.  You remove a stress token after you perform a green maneuver.  So I would say that it happens in step 4.  This would be a nice thing to see clarified in a FAQ.



#5 Gravis

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:27 PM

Well, in the English language version, both removing the stress token (in the core rulebook) and taking the free focus action (off the pilot card) read as, "After executing a green maneuver."  To me, that means that they take place at the same time.  By the official FAQ, if a player has multiple effects that resolve at the same time, he can resolve them in any order.  Therefor he may execute a green maneuver, remove the stress token, take a focus free action, then take another non-focus action.



#6 chrisdk

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:09 AM

Gravis said:

Well, in the English language version, both removing the stress token (in the core rulebook) and taking the free focus action (off the pilot card) read as, "After executing a green maneuver."  To me, that means that they take place at the same time.  By the official FAQ, if a player has multiple effects that resolve at the same time, he can resolve them in any order.  Therefor he may execute a green maneuver, remove the stress token, take a focus free action, then take another non-focus action.

 

You are quoting page 17, where indeed it only says "After a ship executes a green maneuver, remove one stress token from it (see Step 4 on page 7)."

However, on Page 7, where there is the detailed procedure for the activation phase it is its own distinct step.

So I still think that Night Beasts text can just as well mean that it should be done as part of step three, before going on to step 4.



#7 mrfroggies

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:06 AM

Why would it take place during step 3 when it uses the exact same language as removing the stress token in step 4?  Step 3 is Excuting the Maneuver, it does not say to do anything else.  Step 4 takes place after excuting the Maneuver which is the language that is used on Night Beasts card.  

Rules page 17 - "After a ship performs a green maneuver, remove one stress token from it."

Night Beasts Card - "After executing a green maneuver, you may perform a free focus action"

The key words on here is after.  Excuting a manuever is step 3, step 4 is "after".  Both effects take place at the same time.

Page 1 of the FAQ - If a player has multiple effects that resolve at the same time, can he resolve them in any order? Yes.

It seems your question is in the timing of things, because they both use the word, "after" I would say they both happen in step 4, and that being the case the player can resolve them in the order that they choose. 



#8 Gravis

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:29 PM

mrfroggies said:

It seems your question is in the timing of things, because they both use the word, "after" I would say they both happen in step 4, and that being the case the player can resolve them in the order that they choose. 

That's how I read it.  They both use the same language as to the timing, the rule from page 17 and Night Beasts ability from his pilot card.  That leads me to believe the happen simultaneously.  If the rule book (page 7) further defines one to happen at step 4 of the activation phase then the other must also happen at step 4 of the activation phase.



#9 chrisdk

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:10 PM

Well, I believe we are beginning to go round in circles.

 

In my view Page 7 comes first and is the more detailed and specific set of instructions. Page 17 is just a "summary" kind of thing where the reference to "after executing a green maneuver" could just as well just mean "if in Step 3 you executed a green action, in Step 4 you get to remove the Stress token".

The FAQ only applies if your assumption about the identical relevance of "after performing a green action" is correct. Hence it does not lend additional weight to that reading.

But I would like to point out that your understanding of reading it is absolutely valid and a possible meaning. It just seems that we differ in our opinion as to which of the two is the more likely and the stronger.

 

So, unless you find any other indication I would suggest we let it rest and hope for an FAQ on it since your explanation alone does not resolve it for me and my explanation alone does not resolve it for you.

 

Curse you, internet discussions and my stubbornness! ;-)



#10 hothie

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:10 AM

mrfroggies said:

Rules page 17 - "After a ship performs a green maneuver, remove one stress token from it."

Agreed.

mrfroggies said:

Night Beasts Card - "After executing a green maneuver, you may perform a free focus action"

Agreed.

mrfroggies said:

The key words on here is after.  Excuting a manuever is step 3, step 4 is "after".  Both effects take place at the same time.

Page 1 of the FAQ - If a player has multiple effects that resolve at the same time, can he resolve them in any order? Yes.

It seems your question is in the timing of things, because they both use the word, "after" I would say they both happen in step 4, and that being the case the player can resolve them in the order that they choose. 

Agreed. Froggies laid it out perfrectly. I honestly don't see what your misunderstanding is. Unless you have a difference on the words "performs" and "executing". Regardless, they both say "after" the green maneuver, so both events happen at the same time. As per the FAQ it's player's choice.


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#11 magadizer

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:13 AM

What if Night Beast ends his turn overlapping another ship base or an obstacle, or passes through an obstacle in the course of executing a Green maneuver? Obviously he loses his Perform Action step, but shouldn't he also still get his free Focus Action? According to this from the FAQ I would say yes:

 

Q: If a ship is required to skip its “Perform Action” step, is it still allowed to perform free actions outside of the “Perform Action” step?
A: Yes.
 
 
Am I missing something?
 
You might potentially use this to your advantage in a limited number of situations, where you move first, and say, want to take a Green 2 straight maneuver, but you will overlap another ship base. With Night Beast, you still get a focus, so you aren't so worried about avoiding that collision.

Be seeing you.

#12 dvang

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:37 AM

I agree with mrfroggies and hothie.  Since they have the same wording, they resolve at the same time. Therefore, the owning player may choose the order.

 

Re: magadizer - Yes, he would still get the focus token for his ability. His ability allows him to perform/gain the focus essentially between maneuvering and performing an action.  He still skips his "Perform an Action", and so cannot choose to use an action on his ships action bar (etc). Since his ability is not being done as the "Perform Action" step, it still occurs.



#13 hothie

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:53 AM

After thinking about this at work today, i realized I was wrong, and I am admitting it here. I previously stated that the removing of the stress token and the performing of the focus action happen concurrently, and I was wrong about that. The FAQ does not apply in this situation, or at least, doesn't need to.

As written in the rulebook on page 7:

Step 3: Execute Maneuver. This is the part where the stressed Night Beast executed a Green maneuver, thus starting the confusion.

Step 4: Check Pilot Stress. This is where the aforementioned stress token would be removed due to Night Beast executing a green maneuver

Step 5. Clean up. OK

Step 6. Perform Action. This is the step where Night Beast gets to perform actions, and as stated on page 8, free actions. THIS IS THE STEP WHERE NIGHT BEAST PERFORMS HIS FREE FOCUS ACTION DUE TO EXECUTING A GREEN MANEUVER.

So, to answer the OP's question, yes, after a stressed Night Beast executes a green maneuver, he may be granted his free focus action, because the stress token will be removed in step 4, and the free focus action will happen in step 6. I hope that clears up all confusion.


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#14 chrisdk

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:45 PM

Why would he get his free focus action in step 6?

 

It is possible to get free actions outside the "perform action" step and having to skip that step does not prevent you from taking free actions.



#15 hothie

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:32 PM


chrisdk said:



 


Why would he get his free focus action in step 6?


 


 


Quoting directly from page 8:


"Additionally, certain pilot abilities, Upgrade cards, Damage cards, or missions may allow ships to perform other actions…If an ability allows a ship to perform a "free action," this action does not count as the one action allowed during the "Perform Actions" step."


Step 6 is the Perform Actions step. Since Night Beast is performing a free focus action, it happens during this step, which, as is also written on page 8, happens immediately after moving. Page 7 spells out the order of what happens after moving: move, check stress, clean up, perform actions.  I really don't know how much clearer I can be about this.


If you want to say that YOUR Night Beast can't take a free focus action after executing a green maneuver while stressed, fine, I'm not going to argue with you. But my Night Beast will be removing his stress token, then taking his free focus action, as outlined in the rulebook on pages 7 and 8.


/debate


 



It is possible to get free actions outside the "perform action" step and having to skip that step does not prevent you from taking free actions.



Yes, with abilities like Squad Leader, Lando's ability, and Turr's ability to name a few. But in this context, no, because Night Beast is the active ship. He activates in the steps listed on page 7.


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#16 chrisdk

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:52 PM

hothie said:

 

chrisdk said:

 

Why would he get his free focus action in step 6?

 

 

Quoting directly from page 8:

"Additionally, certain pilot abilities, Upgrade cards, Damage cards, or missions may allow ships to perform other actions…If an ability allows a ship to perform a "free action," this action does not count as the one action allowed during the "Perform Actions" step."

Step 6 is the Perform Actions step. Since Night Beast is performing a free focus action, it happens during this step, which, as is also written on page 8, happens immediately after moving. Page 7 spells out the order of what happens after moving: move, check stress, clean up, perform actions.  I really don't know how much clearer I can be about this.

If you want to say that YOUR Night Beast can't take a free focus action after executing a green maneuver while stressed, fine, I'm not going to argue with you. But my Night Beast will be removing his stress token, then taking his free focus action, as outlined in the rulebook on pages 7 and 8.

/debate

 

 

 

That quote merely states that those action do not count as the one allowed in the "Perform Action" Step. It say nothing about when that free action needs to take place.

And the FAQ states, that there are free actions possible outside the perform action step.

By your reading, would Turr Phenirr also have to wait for his next "Perform Action" Step to perform his free barrel roll action that he get's after attacking?

Also for Landy Calrissian, if he gives someone an action from performing a free maneuver, would that guy also have to wait for his next "Perform Action" Step to perform it?

And if both are "No", then why should Nightbeast have to wait for that step?

 

EDIT: And, to be the completely anal annoying smartass: It's the "Perform Action" Step, singular  ;-)

 



#17 hothie

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:57 PM

Because Night Beast is the active ship. He must activate in the steps listed on page 7.


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#18 chrisdk

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:27 PM

hothie said:

Because Night Beast is the active ship. He must activate in the steps listed on page 7.

When Turr Phenirr attacks in his combat phase he is also "the active ship".

 

Where does it say that free actions have to be taken in the "Perform Action" Step?

Or more precisely, where does it say, that free actions generated within the Activation Phase are treated differently than free actions generated outside the Activation Phase?

 



#19 hothie

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:09 AM

You wanted an honest answer to an honest question with your original post. I gave it to you, and told you where to look and why it is. If you don't want to believe it, fine, but your question is answered.


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#20 Vorpal Sword

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 08:41 AM

The problem is the meaning of "after executing a green maneuver". There's no other indication of what the timing of the ability is, and free actions are explicitly allowed to occur outside the Perform Action step.

If "after" means "at any point between the trigger and the end of the ship's activation", Night Beast gets his free Focus. If "execute a maneuver" means "the stuff you do during the activation phase that isn't Perform Action", Night Beast gets his free Focus. The rules are not particularly clear about what either of those terms mean--and, in several places, appears to use them to mean slghtly different things. Furthermore, the intent of the rules seems to be that you get to perform actions normally on rounds where you shed your stress token with a green maneuver.

Accordingly, I think Night Beast ought to get his free Focus in such a turn.

There is a valid reading of the rules, however, that says Night Beast must take his free Focus during the "Execute Maneuver" step of the activation phase. (If you're executing a green maneuver, after all, it makes sense to "locate" that activity in the "Execute Maneuver" step.) Since that step comes before the "Check Stress" step, Night Beast still has a stress token when it occurs, and therefore cannot take any actions, including free actions.

I disagree with that interpretation, but it's actually more straightforward than the others. If my wife says "After you go to the grocery store, could you stop and pick up that package from the post office?" she probably doesn't mean after I go to the grocery store, drive home, put the groceries away, eat a sandwich, take a nap, and check my RSS feed--she means after the grocery store but before I do anything else.

***

I think the wording of "after executing a green maneuver" is sorely in need of clarification, since it appears in multiple places and isn't very clear. R2-D2 can't cause this kind of problem, and I have a hard time thinking of how Lando's could, but it remains that "after [trigger]" needs an unambiguous definition.






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