Jump to content



Photo

WOW! Did You see SW:EotE core book? Why WFRP is not looking like this?


  • Please log in to reply
71 replies to this topic

#1 Beren Eoath

Beren Eoath

    Member

  • Members
  • 280 posts

Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:19 PM

I was fliping through FFG site and waiting for the announcement of SW RPG and then it come. It Look great and as a core book You get a hardcover book with 450 pages full of all the stuff You need to play. My question is why did WFRP had nothing like this? I saw TEW, a friend bought it, and it made me sad becouse without the campain You don't get nothing new there. The Enemy With in is full of all the cards from previous expansions.  It was very disapionting.

So to be fair I would like to see a new version ogf WFRP from FFG. Let it look like the SW RPG. Let us get a big hardcover book with almost 450 pages full of everything you need. Give us some custom dice and a GM screen , give us a new Begginers Game for it! I beg You FFG make a new WFRP that would have all the best possible solutions from all your best RPGs! I want a good WFRP that I can play without cards and other stuff. I want a WFRP with great hardcover books, to play only witrh some custom dice (the best part of WFRP 3e for me), a pencil and a character sheet.

I will keep my fingers crossed to see a new incarnation of WFRP, a better one then every previous!



#2 Yepesnopes

Yepesnopes

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,254 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:28 AM

I think the answer is because Warhammer 3 came first in time line than SW EotE. In the new SW they just refined Warhammer 3, well, this is at least what Jay said. I am reading through the SW EotE beta book, I have to admeit it looks a bit more thought than warhammer 3.

I would be very positive to the release of a "new" or "refined" version of warhammer 3 using the mechanics of SW EotE, especially the opposed checks and the lack of recharge tokens in EotE is a gust of fresh wind for me.

So far, I have the new Enemy Campaing to play through. I hope in case they release a new warhammer, it is fairly compatible with 3ed material.

 

Cheers,

Yepes


The Book of the Asur - High Elf fan supplement

The Dark Side - Witches, Warlocks, Dark Magic and more

Secrets of the Anvil - Advanced Dwarf careers and runes

Dice statistics calculator for SW EotE


#3 Emirikol

Emirikol

    ~Ĉiam subskribi antaŭ-nup kun Fimir

  • Members
  • 4,797 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:42 AM

WFRP is absolute creation in the raw.  It is all those new concept mechanics that hadn't been done in an rpg before to this scale.  SW is just WFRP 3rd edition simplified for the masses, but looks a little 'too simple' for my tastes.  

The talent flow chart looks like an absolute cluster f to me though.  Evidently they fixed some things and went right back to the unnecessary board game aspect on others.

So, it's still an evolving game.  WFRP 5th edition (like we'll ever see such an entity), would be an evolution beyond WFRP4th/SW..and will still have an imperfect system.

I'm hearing complaints about SW not having enough "class/careers" and that they're not all in the starting book…here we go again ;)

 

I hope they iron more bugs out of SW before they attempt another version of the same old stuff for WFRP.

jh

 

 

 



#4 Superchunk

Superchunk

    Member

  • Members
  • 82 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:20 AM

There's no such thing as a perfect game. Every game will have flaws and rules that can be exploited or that will not make sense.

WFRP was a pioneer in this respect  as it gave us a whole whack of tools to use in our games with very broad uses for each. You can use cards or you can choose to use the player's guide, you can use trackers, stances, tokens, etc. or you can use other things, but the basic rules all revolve around the dice.

From what I've seen of the star wars game, which doesn't interest me in the least btw (not a big SW fan past the original 3 movies). I've looked at the probabilities on those new star wars dice and they seem rather high. I understand characters like to succeed, but having starting probabilities higher than 50% for most situations just seems like coddling to me.



#5 Yepesnopes

Yepesnopes

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,254 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:49 AM

Superchunk said:

I've looked at the probabilities on those new star wars dice and they seem rather high. I understand characters like to succeed, but having starting probabilities higher than 50% for most situations just seems like coddling to me.

 

Aren't the ones in warhammer 3 equally high? or more?
 
A fresh starting character with 0 xp and a characteristic of 4 and 1 training dice, has a probability of 64% of succeeding on an Average (2d) check. This without counting any stance dice or specialization
 
If the character has a characteristic of 3 and 1 training dice (no specialization), the probability of succeeding on an Average (2d) check is of 53%
 
In those areas where the character is not specially competent (supposing a characteristic of 3 and no training dice at all), the probability of succeding on an Average (2d) check are 38%
 
Bear in mind that by just replacing a single characteristic dice by a stance dice, you are boosting the probabilities by a 5% (approx.). Additionally, characters can have characteristics as high as 5 in their areas of expertise, which makes the numbers still higher (+9%).
 
So, if high probabilities are not your piece of cake…
 
Definitely for me, after so many years of playing Warhammer v1 and v2, where starting probabilities hardly ever go above 40% for an average challenge (and in many situations you are around 30% or lower!) this was a hard part to digest from Warhammer 3.
 
Now I am fine with it, or so I think burla
 
Cheers,
Yepes

The Book of the Asur - High Elf fan supplement

The Dark Side - Witches, Warlocks, Dark Magic and more

Secrets of the Anvil - Advanced Dwarf careers and runes

Dice statistics calculator for SW EotE


#6 Superchunk

Superchunk

    Member

  • Members
  • 82 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:50 PM

Yeah I'm aware of the probabilities in WFRP3 and with the way I'm playing it, they won't be that high. But I understand that's the default rules as written. Star Wars is even higher from what I heard, but then again they may have changed the dice since the first Beta went out.

I guess I've just never wanted to roleplay in the Star Wars Universe, and the fact that I have already invested so heavily in WFRP3 makes me want to play that more and use those rules for other games as well (like Dark Sun and Birthright)



#7 DevoutBadger

DevoutBadger

    Member

  • Members
  • 57 posts

Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:51 AM

WFRP3 tried to step away from needing to look up rules in a book during sessions and boil everything down to cards and a few basic rules you could out on a GM screen or two or three pages of cheat sheets at most. This was pretty new an innovative but strangely gamers have gotten a bit set in their ways and miss their oversized rulebooks and have some strange fear of cards. Who knew?

Your question is a bit silly though. WFRP doesn't look like that because they would have to toss out at least half thier game to do so. Little of which is seriously broken.



#8 Beren Eoath

Beren Eoath

    Member

  • Members
  • 280 posts

Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:26 AM

For me WFRP 3e looks like a big expariment. Don't get me wrong it was interesting but the cards a e a miss understanding. Card are not cheap so the price goes higher, in many expansions we got some missprints or reprints and for every one of those we had to pay money. WFRP 3e is a interestinfg system but with no future for me. The future is in the games of more classic sttyle of publishing like SW RPG EotE. I just hope that in near future FFG will make an upgraded od new version of WFRP in SW style and format. I don't care if you can ue 23e stuff with it or not. I just want a new good WFRP. The one that I can play with a book in my hand, and my players would only need a character sheet.

The is no perfect RPG but SW look like it could be close to the best. Let's just hope that in the near future FFG will announce something new like a new WFRP (3.5 or 4e).

PS. It looks like the aprouch to RPG series that they used with W40k or now with SW is a good way so I hope to see something similar made in WFRP style.



#9 LordoftheMilk

LordoftheMilk

    Member

  • Members
  • 60 posts

Posted 18 January 2013 - 01:40 AM

I personally love WFRP3.

 

I want more cards, not more books. I have tons of books already.

I think the action cards were a fantastic creation.

I want more actions, talents, carreers, settings etc.

 

Thanks FFG for a great game.

 

LotM

 



#10 Yepesnopes

Yepesnopes

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,254 posts

Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:12 AM

I understand that in forums people can express themselves the way they like. But on the other hand, forums are alos a place to discuss with others, and if things take an increasingly emotional way there is nothing to discuss or argue about.

I don't mind that people defending one or the other version of the game, or one game over another, as long a debate can be created.

Otherwise we end up with threads like "Red is better then Blue" or "I like apples and not oranges, becuase oranges suck"

 

Cheers,

Yepes


The Book of the Asur - High Elf fan supplement

The Dark Side - Witches, Warlocks, Dark Magic and more

Secrets of the Anvil - Advanced Dwarf careers and runes

Dice statistics calculator for SW EotE


#11 bladerunner_35

bladerunner_35

    Member

  • Members
  • 440 posts

Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:36 AM

LordoftheMilk said:

I personally love WFRP3.

 

I want more cards, not more books. I have tons of books already.

I think the action cards were a fantastic creation.

I want more actions, talents, carreers, settings etc.

 

Thanks FFG for a great game.

 

LotM

 

 

Basically this. It's visual and because of it easier in some aspects (but not all) to get into. All the cards, stands and stuffTM is great for my kids. 

Now, it would suck if every game had tons and tons of cards to sort through but WFRP3 is unique. All my other rpgs have lists and traits and abilities. That's ok too but I love WFRP3 because of its card mechanic, not despite it. 


it takes only a small amount of charitable reading to make the internet dramatically more palatable.

#12 Beren Eoath

Beren Eoath

    Member

  • Members
  • 280 posts

Posted 18 January 2013 - 07:15 AM

Don't get me wrong I liked this system when it come up. I was very enthusiatic about it but after many sessions, after getting all expansions I saw that FFG is reprinting cards. Many expansions have the same cards so in the end we get a lot of duplicated actions and there's so many of them in the box. The card are a problem, not only to store them in a good way but also in play (you need space). The same goes for recharge tokens. I don't say WFRP 3e is a bad game but still it would be better, in my opinion, without those parts. For me such elements like tokens, papert stand-ups of monsters or heroes, action cards or all other cards are not needed to play a good RPG game. That's why I like what I saw at SW EotE beta and now what I hear about SW EotE core book. Iike the idea of having all what I need in one book. I know that there is not too many careers in it but with expansions there will be more of them. I like the idea that erery aspekt of play needs a little bit of different approuch so there are different core books for different aspects of the game (W40K has the same type of line publishing). the best part of SW EotE for me is that it looks like it has all the best parts of WFRP 3e without those that are not so needed. Mazbe all this is becouse I started plazing with out those and alwazs thought that RPG are all played with imagination and the machanic such just support it and not be instead of it. That's how I feel after many years of playing many editions of WFRP. I would really enjoy if FFG would come back to the style of publishing the RPG games only in books format. I would really like to see the game made once more from the begginnig.

So if FFG would make out of WFRP the type of game the Sw RPG or W40K looks like I would be very glad. I'm still very curious about the future of WFRP.

Cheers and happy gaming



#13 DevoutBadger

DevoutBadger

    Member

  • Members
  • 57 posts

Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:47 PM

I think not having to look up abilities and rules mid session is a big bonus for the card-style format and take that over having to go look up feats and skill charts any day as I feel it keep the game amd story moving with a much better flow. I have yet to see a book-based game match it.

That being said, you shouldn't worry, because if we do see a newer edition of WFRP from FFG it is likely to be book-style as I think the current edition has proved too problematic and may be near dead anyways.

 



#14 Yepesnopes

Yepesnopes

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,254 posts

Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:23 PM

DevoutBadger said:

I think not having to look up abilities and rules mid session is a big bonus for the card-style format and take that over having to go look up feats and skill charts any day as I feel it keep the game amd story moving with a much better flow. I have yet to see a book-based game match it.

From my point of view this is an interesting statement that repeats over an over when someone lists the good things of Warhammer 3. I don't agree that there is a real difference by having the cards or not having them.

I have never had to look for rules in the book in other more "classic lloking" rpgs. That is because in all the rpgs I have played, everything the player needs to knows is in the character sheet (I have not played D&D 3, 3.5 or 4), may be Ars Magica beign the an exception. So, in my opinion action cards don't really give an advantage in that sense. A good character sheet does the job for the players. Similarly, a good GM screen does a similar job for the GM.

Action cards have on the other hand an apealing visual component, that I agree.

Cheers,

Yepes


The Book of the Asur - High Elf fan supplement

The Dark Side - Witches, Warlocks, Dark Magic and more

Secrets of the Anvil - Advanced Dwarf careers and runes

Dice statistics calculator for SW EotE


#15 DevoutBadger

DevoutBadger

    Member

  • Members
  • 57 posts

Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:37 PM

In D&D 3.x and Pathfinder and Warhammer 40k games you see it and to a smaller degree in 4e D&D people needing to look up what kind of attacks do what, how things trigger or how spells work. All largely a non-issue when you have a basic unified mechanic and all the abilities down on cards like in WFRP3.



#16 Yepesnopes

Yepesnopes

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,254 posts

Posted 19 January 2013 - 01:20 AM

DevoutBadger said:

In D&D 3.x and Pathfinder and Warhammer 40k games you see it and to a smaller degree in 4e D&D people needing to look up what kind of attacks do what, how things trigger or how spells work. All largely a non-issue when you have a basic unified mechanic and all the abilities down on cards like in WFRP3.

I am sure what you say is true. Nonetheless, my point is that this is not the norm (or it was not) in rpgs. I can name easely 10 (actually more) rpgs where you don't need to look farther away than in your character sheet or your GM screen. With this, I don't mean that action cards are bad, just they do not makes things easier than in other rpgs, apart may be than those you mention.

In my opinion the real innovative (and great thing!) from Warhammer 3 are the custum dice, no more, no less.

Action, talent, condition, wound cards (and the rest) are just to avoid piracy and to reduce player's work so they don't have to write things down in a paper sheet. A good thing for sure, but not mind blowing.

 

Cheers,

Yepes


The Book of the Asur - High Elf fan supplement

The Dark Side - Witches, Warlocks, Dark Magic and more

Secrets of the Anvil - Advanced Dwarf careers and runes

Dice statistics calculator for SW EotE


#17 Beren Eoath

Beren Eoath

    Member

  • Members
  • 280 posts

Posted 19 January 2013 - 02:40 AM

I agre with Yepesnopes, a good character sheet and GM screen (especialy the first one) are the best things that fix looking in to the rules. i've played many RPGs over more then 20 years now and never had a problem with the need to look up the rules in the books. The thing, in my opinion, with the cards is that they some times think for the players or the players think that they can't do anything that they don't have a card for. Without cards players have more options becouse they are not restricted to card and use more imagination. I remember my first session in WFRP 3e when all my players asked what can they do if they don't have a card for something? That was the first sign for my that card are not good for all players. Some will think of them as good think becouse  the cards say what they character can do, but for other those will be restriction or limits for characters that show what they heroes can't do.

The thing I think is good in SW EotE is the skill list on characters sheets that tell players how good they are in specific skills. So the GM only tells them which skill to use and how challenging it will be but the effect and what a players whats to do depends only from his choice and his imagination. I never thought of having everything in books as something bad, it only needs a good organisation before sessions.

DevoutBadger - I think you have a good feeleing about the line. I also have a hunch, when looking at the WFRP 3e, that this line is nearing the end. The WFRP 3e is problematic, it become to expansive and I remeber last years sale. If my memory is correct the same thing happened with WFRP 2e, before the end of the line and announcing the 3e there was a big sale when FFG whanted to clear there werehouses of the previous edition. The same is happening here, as I see it. The Christmas sale was a sign for me that the line is not doing so well. I just wonder if FFG will make a new edition? And if they do one will it be a 3.5 e or 4e?

And I totaly agre with You, DevoutBadger, that the new edition will be in book format. I think that the format used in W40K RPGs and SW RPGs is a succesfull one.

Cheers

 

PS. I also think that the best part of WFRP 3e was the custom dice mechanic. It was wonderful playing the game and seeing that the result not only is a success or failure but also has some side effects.



#18 James Sparrow

James Sparrow

    Member

  • Members
  • 129 posts

Posted 19 January 2013 - 02:48 AM

Yepesnopes said:

DevoutBadger said:

 

In D&D 3.x and Pathfinder and Warhammer 40k games you see it and to a smaller degree in 4e D&D people needing to look up what kind of attacks do what, how things trigger or how spells work. All largely a non-issue when you have a basic unified mechanic and all the abilities down on cards like in WFRP3.

 

 

I am sure what you say is true. Nonetheless, my point is that this is not the norm (or it was not) in rpgs. I can name easely 10 (actually more) rpgs where you don't need to look farther away than in your character sheet or your GM screen. With this, I don't mean that action cards are bad, just they do not makes things easier than in other rpgs, apart may be than those you mention.

In my opinion the real innovative (and great thing!) from Warhammer 3 are the custum dice, no more, no less.

Action, talent, condition, wound cards (and the rest) are just to avoid piracy and to reduce player's work so they don't have to write things down in a paper sheet. A good thing for sure, but not mind blowing.

 

Cheers,

Yepes

Yepesnopes said:

DevoutBadger said:

 

In D&D 3.x and Pathfinder and Warhammer 40k games you see it and to a smaller degree in 4e D&D people needing to look up what kind of attacks do what, how things trigger or how spells work. All largely a non-issue when you have a basic unified mechanic and all the abilities down on cards like in WFRP3.

 

 

I am sure what you say is true. Nonetheless, my point is that this is not the norm (or it was not) in rpgs. I can name easely 10 (actually more) rpgs where you don't need to look farther away than in your character sheet or your GM screen. With this, I don't mean that action cards are bad, just they do not makes things easier than in other rpgs, apart may be than those you mention.

In my opinion the real innovative (and great thing!) from Warhammer 3 are the custum dice, no more, no less.

Action, talent, condition, wound cards (and the rest) are just to avoid piracy and to reduce player's work so they don't have to write things down in a paper sheet. A good thing for sure, but not mind blowing.

 

I'm pretty much in agreement with you on the dice being the main and most interesting innovation, although I'm still in doubt over whether or not they are actually needed.

The cards are fine for carrying rules and the tokens are fine for tracking, but I'd rather see a system that reduced the need to check rules and keep track of things in the first place.

That said, taking WFRP3 as it is, what might sell me on the system is a good character sheet app for a tablet, enabling you to check, track and alter details with a touch.

Cheers

Sparrow



#19 Emirikol

Emirikol

    ~Ĉiam subskribi antaŭ-nup kun Fimir

  • Members
  • 4,797 posts

Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:33 AM

I found the character sheet to be the weakest part of the game from the start, otherwise I personally like the cards for character actions and use them for most of the games that I play now (pathfinder, etc.).

 

No big deal though.  I still find the new SW game to be a little too simplified for my tastes after playing the depths of WFRP3.  Maybe that will change as they add supplements to the game they could bring it back up to the advanced level of WFRP3.

 

But, for anyone who doesn't like the "cards" why aren't you using the player's guide?

 

jh

 



#20 Beren Eoath

Beren Eoath

    Member

  • Members
  • 280 posts

Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:52 AM

The character sheet for 3e are designed to fit the system as it is and besides not everyone like to play with a tablet.

Emirikol, I remember that Lite version of the game that FFG promised and I tried it - it's unplayable. Really, everyone in my group when he would need to write down all action said it not worth. It takes to much time and you still need to play with cards and tokens but You need to write them down and not place them on table.  Besides there is no chance to make a card for every thing a player or GM wants to do, the imagination  has no limits and cards do.

I agre that a system needs to be played as easy as it can and have a good character sheet. Also the rules have to be so easy to not have to look at them every time. I had a chance to play now SW Bigginers Game and enjoyed it. It was so easy to learn and play. Wow it's so intuitive. Really a nice game.

I think that the cards are not so needed when the rules are written good.

I just wondered if the WFRP would look like the SW or W40k line then how would they divide it? Which  part FFG would fit into which line? There could be a corebook for the border lands of the Empire and fighting agains invasions from beyond the Sigmar lands, for the cities such as enemy within to fight cultists and enemies of Underempire, for players to play outside of the Old World and of course a line to play on the Chaos side as the evil ones.

I'm really waiting inpacient to see an official news about the future of WFRP, any news from FFG would be great to hear. This waiting to know  what will come is terrible. And still keeping my fingers crossed to see an updated verison of the WFRP (3.5 or 4 would be great).

Cheers

 

PS. One of the biggers mistakes for the WFRP was to fit into the core products anly 3 Faiths and 3 Orders of  Magic. There should be all of them but with fewer spells soif you would want to play, you could play any wizard or any priest. And if you would want to have more blessings/spells you would need an expansion. I really was unpleased when I saw only 3 of each of them.






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS