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Tareted strike + Shii cho training


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#1 bobbywhiskey

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:49 PM

Luke with both of these (well he always has targeted strike), trying to figure out exactly how it works. I would say he can eitehr split dmg among participating units OR put all his dmg into one unit not participating. Being able to split dmg among targets outside of the fight seems a bit overpowered, and (more importantly) the wording kinda makes me think this si not the case but people around here aren't entirely sure.



#2 Surge1000

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 07:38 PM

Targeted Strike - "When a card with the "Targeted Stike" keyword strikes during an engagement as an attacker, damage from its [unit damage] icon type may be assigned to one target enemy unit card, even if that unit that [sic] is not participating in the engagement." (Yes, that typo is in the rulebook.)

Shii-Cho Training
Type: Enhancement
Cost: 1
Force Icons: 2
Affiliation: Light Jedi
Skill. Lightsaber Form.
Enhance a Force User unit.
Damage from enhanced unit's [Unit Damage] icon type may be divided among any number of participating enemy units.

 

 

There was a discussion over on the BGG forums about this very issue.  It is expected to be resolved in the FAQ.  One of the game's playtesters commented in the discussion and suggested that the Targeted Strike ability could be combined with the Shii-Cho Training ability to allow a unit affected by both to split its unit damage among any number of units participating or not participating in the engagement based upon what he was taught for playtesting.

 

However, a strict reading of how the two abilities interact will give you a headache because Shii-Cho Training is card text which, due to the Golden Rule, overrides rules text.  Targeted Strike is a keyword, so it is considered rules text.  Therefore, seemingly unintentionally, Shii-Cho would restrict the enhanced unit's [unit damage] to any number of "participating" enemy units, basically meaning no matter what you want to do, only Shii-Cho Training's ability is effective if it enhances a unit with Targeted Strike.

 

That said, the playtester felt that the ruling from the FAQ would be as he had been taught in playtesting (combined effects like in my first paragraph).  I initially felt the same because I didn't feel it was the designer's intent to essentially nullify the Targeted Strike effect when Shii-Cho training was applied to the same unit.  But there's no way around it if you go strictly by the rules and the card text.  If Targeted Strike were a card effect and not a rule effect, the combo would work out.  Since keywords are technically rule effects though, it's a no go.

 

I think the rules team has a real dilemma on their hands with this one.  The way I see it, their only three options are:

1.) Rule against what they taught the playtesters if they want to maintain the rules in their current form

2.)  Issue card errata

3.) Change the rules

 

Honestly, there's no way to know.  I would just avoid putting Shi-Cho Training on anything with Targeted Strike right now.



#3 stormwolf27

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:47 PM

Surge1000 said:

Targeted Strike - "When a card with the "Targeted Stike" keyword strikes during an engagement as an attacker, damage from its [unit damage] icon type may be assigned to one target enemy unit card, even if that unit that [sic] is not participating in the engagement." (Yes, that typo is in the rulebook.)

Shii-Cho Training
Type: Enhancement
Cost: 1
Force Icons: 2
Affiliation: Light Jedi
Skill. Lightsaber Form.
Enhance a Force User unit.
Damage from enhanced unit's [Unit Damage] icon type may be divided among any number of participating enemy units.

 

 

There was a discussion over on the BGG forums about this very issue.  It is expected to be resolved in the FAQ.  One of the game's playtesters commented in the discussion and suggested that the Targeted Strike ability could be combined with the Shii-Cho Training ability to allow a unit affected by both to split its unit damage among any number of units participating or not participating in the engagement based upon what he was taught for playtesting.

 

However, a strict reading of how the two abilities interact will give you a headache because Shii-Cho Training is card text which, due to the Golden Rule, overrides rules text.  Targeted Strike is a keyword, so it is considered rules text.  Therefore, seemingly unintentionally, Shii-Cho would restrict the enhanced unit's [unit damage] to any number of "participating" enemy units, basically meaning no matter what you want to do, only Shii-Cho Training's ability is effective if it enhances a unit with Targeted Strike.

 

That said, the playtester felt that the ruling from the FAQ would be as he had been taught in playtesting (combined effects like in my first paragraph).  I initially felt the same because I didn't feel it was the designer's intent to essentially nullify the Targeted Strike effect when Shii-Cho training was applied to the same unit.  But there's no way around it if you go strictly by the rules and the card text.  If Targeted Strike were a card effect and not a rule effect, the combo would work out.  Since keywords are technically rule effects though, it's a no go.

 

I think the rules team has a real dilemma on their hands with this one.  The way I see it, their only three options are:

1.) Rule against what they taught the playtesters if they want to maintain the rules in their current form

2.)  Issue card errata

3.) Change the rules

 

Honestly, there's no way to know.  I would just avoid putting Shi-Cho Training on anything with Targeted Strike right now.

There was a discussion here, too, I believe.

Even if it does make you choose to either split among participating or all to one non-participating, that doesn't necessarily make it bad to put the enhancement on someone with targeted strike. I personally feel it just gives you more options. Especially if you consider you only have the choice on the attack as to which one to use.


"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka


#4 DailyRich

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 01:24 AM

If the combo does let you include non-participating units in the split damage, wouldn't it still only be one non-participating unit, as per the wording of Targeted Strike ('one target enemy unit card")?



#5 divinityofnumber

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:00 AM

View this post, and thread in general. 


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#6 Tappiocca

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:38 AM

Targeted Strike. (When attacking, this unit may instead damage a target enemy unit not participating in the engagement.)

?Damage from enhanced unit's [Unit Damage] icon type may be divided among any number of participating enemy unit

Basically, I would say; you get to choose which one you use, as they are both pretty specific in what they do.



#7 Surge1000

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 02:28 PM

stormwolf27 said:

 

There was a discussion here, too, I believe.

Even if it does make you choose to either split among participating or all to one non-participating, that doesn't necessarily make it bad to put the enhancement on someone with targeted strike. I personally feel it just gives you more options. Especially if you consider you only have the choice on the attack as to which one to use.

 

 

 

Yeah, I thought about today when I was driving.  In my discussion, I presented my argument as though once Shii-Cho Strike was placed on a unit, its effect on how the unit deals damage is modified.  I failed to acknowledge the word MAY, meaning one could choose not to exercise that option.  Targeted Strike uses the same MAY wording, so it's optional as well.  So nullify was a poor word choice on my part.  Luke with Shii-Cho strike could exercise either option rather than not having a choice.

 

(no idea why a second quote wouldn't work here…)

DailyRich said:

 If the combo does let you include non-participating units in the split damage, wouldn't it still only be one non-participating unit, as per the wording of Targeted Strike ('one target enemy unit card")?

 

Heh, I thought about that part while I was driving too, and as far as I can tell, you are correct.  It seems that the combo would allow you to deal unit damage split among any number of participating units and one non-participating unit.  My suspicion on designer intent was that they didn't mean for targeted strike to limit unit damage to one target if the unit were somehow able to split its damage, and similarly, they didn't mean for Shii-Cho to limit the spliting of unit damage to participating units only if the unit it modifies were capable of damaging non-participating units.  I feel like the designers were trying to give the player benefits from each card, but because of the simplified wording on the cards (for sheer pragmatism), the unintended consequences were restrictions to other aspects they didn't truly intend to modify.

 

But in this case, the rules are quite clear, and I'd rather not alter the game based on my suspicion of designers' intent when the evidence avaiable solidly points in a different direction.

 

The FAQ can't come fast enough.

 

 



#8 LordZKrutor

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:50 AM

Hello everybody,

I think it's pretty simple. You have right, that on Luke Skylwalker card is:

"When a card with the "Targeted Stike" keyword strikes during an engagement as an attacker, damage from its [unit damage] icon type may be assigned to one target enemy unit card, even if that unit that [sic] is not participating in the engagement."

 

But in Rulebook is a little different sentence:

When a card with the “Targeted Strike” keyword strikes
during an engagement as an attacker, damage from its
[Unit Damage] 
icon type may be assigned to one target enemy unit card,
even if that unit is not participating in the engagement.

That mean, that you may chose different way to damage opponent player. So, why not chose another way. Way of Shii-Cho Training card.

Damage from enhanced unit's [Unit Damage] icon type may be divided among any number of participating enemy units.

Example from Rulebook:

The LS player focuses “Luke Skywalker” to strike (his only remaining ready unit). The LS player resolves the [Unit Damage] icon type (strength two) and assigns two damage to “Kuati Security Team,” destroying them (or the player could choose Targeted Strike and give two damage to "Darth Vader", who was not participating in the engagement or he could choose text from Shii-Cho Training card and divide one damage to “Kuati Security Team” and one damage to "XXX".

 

Sorry for my english and I hope it's clear :)

LordZKrutor



#9 Surge1000

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:28 PM

LZK,

 

If I understand you correctly, yes, you're right.  You could choose to exercise either the targeted strike modifier or the Shii-Cho Strike modifier for your strike resolution.

 

I posted a follow-up to my initial wall of text that clarified that, but I certainly forgive you for not reading my second wall of text.

Others pointed out the same.






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