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First inifinite loop of the game


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#1 Skychapon

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 09:51 PM

Hi everybody,

I find an interesting infinite loop in the game for the LS player.

You need :
1x Leia Organa (OS #10), 2x It Binds All Things (OS #7), 1x Fall Back! (#14) and 1x Rescue Mission (#16).

I assume the Force is for the LS player.
The LS player have Leia Organa in play (or in hand with 2 ressources available to play her) and 2 It Binds All Things, 1 Rescue Mission and 1 Fall Back! in hand.

Initialisation :
(0. I play Leia Organa)
1. Play Fall Back! on Leia Organa => She is capture and all my focus tokens are discarded (I have a minimum of 4 ressources available now)
2. Play Rescue Mission on Leia Organa => Leia Organa is put into play
3. Play It Binds All Things to take in my hand Rescue Mission and Fall back!

Loop :
4. Play Fall Back! on Leia Organa => Capture and refresh
5. Play the second It Binds All Things to take in my hand Fall Back! and the first It Binds All Things
6. Play Rescue Mission on Leia Organa => Leia Organa is put into play
7. Play the first It Binds All Things to take in my hand Rescue Mission and the second It Binds All Things
8. Back to 4.

You can use this combo to :
A/ Attack or defend with all your alive units (you refresh them with the combo between each attack)
B/ Destroy all ennemy units if you have a Heavy Blaster Emplacment (OS #9) in play

The combo didn't work if :
- One of your Event is canceled
- You didn't control the Force
- There is one or more cards captured with Leia at the same objective



#2 Aahzmandius_Karrde

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 02:34 AM

I'll repeat my response on BGG, but I'm interested in other opinions:

 

Well, I've spent the last 15 minutes reviewing the cards and trying to poke holes in this, and I don't seem able to.

On the "bright" side it's not truly infinite, as there is only so many useful iterations of it per turn. Your opponent will only have so many units, and you can only attack each objective once. So the DS player will have a chance to do something in between each of those cycles, and maintaining the cycle will both limit you in resources to place units and the ability to draw new ones. The odds of getting to this had are rather difficult as well and building up to it as you draw the cards would be crippling to any other strategy.

I'll agree that this combo is definitely OP, but I'm not quite sure it's game breaking.



#3 DailyRich

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:57 AM

Plus it seems like that, unless you manage to get all five cards in your opening draw, you're going to be sitting there holding on to the ones you do get hoping to draw the others.  Which means you'd be absolutely crippled in edge battles.



#4 TGO

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:31 AM

Bravo on finding this combo but exactly how effective is the deck?  

It looks like a lot of stuff has to fall into place in order to get the combo to even go off.  You are living the dream when it works but it looks like thats a very small percentage of the time.



#5 Xenu's Paradox

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:10 AM

DailyRich said:

 

Plus it seems like that, unless you manage to get all five cards in your opening draw, you're going to be sitting there holding on to the ones you do get hoping to draw the others.  Which means you'd be absolutely crippled in edge battles.

 

 

Infinite combos, unless you're able to build your whole deck around them (see: MtG's Prosperbloom deck) fall under the "Nice to have" category rather than the "sit and wait until you have all the pieces" category.



#6 Xenu's Paradox

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:08 PM

Just realized: You don't need Fall Back! in this combo. You can use You're My Only Hope instead, to draw as many cards as you want and empty your opponent's hand. This means that you can basically draw your entire deck, and then use Fleet Command Centers for infinite resource production (as they're not Limited) to play all your units, then engage all 3 DS objectives and destroy them.



#7 dbmeboy

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 02:43 PM

And so we have the first true combo deck. If it can assemble its combo, it can win fairly reliably. The odds of assembling the combo are pretty slim though as you need to get all of those cards andthe force balance.

#8 Xenu's Paradox

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

dbmeboy said:

And so we have the first true combo deck. If it can assemble its combo, it can win fairly reliably. The odds of assembling the combo are pretty slim though as you need to get all of those cards andthe force balance.

Not just that, but the needed objective sets don't synergize all that well, and if you run 2x each, you're going to have a deck that can't do a whole lot unless you pull the combo. None of the three necessary sets (Fleeing the Empire, Jedi Training, Rumors at the Cantina) have any resource enhancements, and none of them have anything that's abusable with it. Your best bet is to run 2x Defense of Yavin 4 and 2x Mission Briefing so you can draw basically your entire deck, empty their hand, drop a couple Y-Wings, destroy all their units, and then demolish all 3 objectives in one turn.



#9 Rogue 4

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:36 AM

I guess I would have to see a full deck list, but won't this combo be prevented by you just being able to engage each objective once? Is the Navigator included in here? Are your units heavy in Damage Icons?

To be able to attack twice, or three times with Leia is awesome, but you have to have the above PLUS win edge battles against Tactics Icons, etc. etc.

 

 



#10 Tappiocca

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:18 AM

Xenu's Paradox said:

Just realized: You don't need Fall Back! in this combo. You can use You're My Only Hope instead, to draw as many cards as you want and empty your opponent's hand. This means that you can basically draw your entire deck, and then use Fleet Command Centers for infinite resource production (as they're not Limited) to play all your units, then engage all 3 DS objectives and destroy them.

you would have to be careful not to deck yourself b4 your opponents turn. If they have something that can force you to draw, or you attempt to play it with only one card in ur deck you would auto lose, as you would be unable to draw.



#11 Xenu's Paradox

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:51 AM

rgeer3 said:

Xenu's Paradox said:

 

Just realized: You don't need Fall Back! in this combo. You can use You're My Only Hope instead, to draw as many cards as you want and empty your opponent's hand. This means that you can basically draw your entire deck, and then use Fleet Command Centers for infinite resource production (as they're not Limited) to play all your units, then engage all 3 DS objectives and destroy them.

 

 

you would have to be careful not to deck yourself b4 your opponents turn. If they have something that can force you to draw, or you attempt to play it with only one card in ur deck you would auto lose, as you would be unable to draw.

 

There are currently no effects that force an opponent to draw. Also, you are allowed to count the cards in your deck at any time, provided you don't do it as a stalling tactic. So you can't accidentally draw out.

 

As far as the actual decklist, I think 2x Fleeing the Empire, 2x Jedi Training, 2x Mission Briefing, 2x Defense of Yavin 4, and 1 each of Draw Their Fire and Rumors at the Cantina would work.



#12 Tappiocca

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:08 AM

Xenu's Paradox said:

rgeer3 said:

 

Xenu's Paradox said:

There are currently no effects that force an opponent to draw. Also, you are allowed to count the cards in your deck at any time, provided you don't do it as a stalling tactic. So you can't accidentally draw out.

 

was mainly just saying as "awkward moment"



#13 Skychapon

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:48 PM

Xenu's Paradox said:

Just realized: You don't need Fall Back! in this combo. You can use You're My Only Hope instead, to draw as many cards as you want and empty your opponent's hand. This means that you can basically draw your entire deck, and then use Fleet Command Centers for infinite resource production (as they're not Limited) to play all your units, then engage all 3 DS objectives and destroy them.

Good point! Didn't see that :)

I don't try the combo yet, just imagine it. I don't think the deck is competitive as well.

My motivation is to warn the designer team that such combo exists and they need to be careful on that in futur design.



#14 JustinMcBride

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:35 PM

I played six game using a deck built to use the combo. The deck was horrible. In six games, I never pulled off the combo. Way too much needed to pull it of. However, if It Binds All Things is ever reprinted in another objective set (or new card with a similar function is printed) the deck could work as there would be more pieces for the combo to be enabled.


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#15 divinityofnumber

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:48 PM

JustinMcBride said:

I played six game using a deck built to use the combo. The deck was horrible. In six games, I never pulled off the combo. Way too much needed to pull it of. However, if It Binds All Things is ever reprinted in another objective set (or new card with a similar function is printed) the deck could work as there would be more pieces for the combo to be enabled.

Were you dumping the maximum number of cards possible per turn (discarding in the draw phase and also dumping as much as you could into every edge stack)? Were you trying to actually play a bit, too, or were you just trying to sift through your deck as fast as possible for the combo cards?


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#16 agnos

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:38 PM

JustinMcBride said:

I played six game using a deck built to use the combo. The deck was horrible. In six games, I never pulled off the combo. Way too much needed to pull it of. However, if It Binds All Things is ever reprinted in another objective set (or new card with a similar function is printed) the deck could work as there would be more pieces for the combo to be enabled.

Yah, I just messed around with it.  I tried using double sets of 7, 9, 10, 14, and 16; I chose set 14 over set 15 because it looks like a set that is far more capable of 'hand dumping' but after messing around with it 15 might be slightly better because it has resource ramp.  In about 20 games of goldfishing I was able to setup the cards for the combo once but that was on my 7th turn; notably I had double Mission briefing and the Jedi Training objective that game.  However, assuming no trickery from the DS, my force total was 7; most DS decks could be that wholly negating the combo.  Granted, the highest total you can reasonably get with this deck is 10.  Additionally, there's no way to actually attack for lethal once you actually get the combo; nor could you as you are often discarding characters just in preparation of grabbing the combo.  Your best starts are something like Leia, You're My Only Hope, IBAT, Emplacement, Engineer, Jedi Mind Trick. The problem is that while you have an infinite loop in theory; in actuality the odds of getting the cards you want when you want them is super low.  On top of that once you lose the force (which I'd estimate is no later than the second DS turn), the combo is completely broken up.  Even if It Binds All Things were printed in another set, because the cards are so spread out over so many pods, it just doesn't work.  You would need 2-3 events that let you draw and discard 2-3 cards for this to really be more viable, but I don't see anything like that being printed any time soon.



#17 JustinMcBride

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:34 PM

In every game, every attempt was to simply perform the combo while keeping the balance of the force. It was not successful.


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#18 Reklawyad

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:53 PM

Interesting concept.

 

question why do you need to have LS control to win? I though you just had to KO three objectives. 



#19 dbmeboy

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:35 AM

Reklawyad said:

Interesting concept.

 

question why do you need to have LS control to win? I though you just had to KO three objectives. 

You need LS control of the force so that It Binds All Things will get back 2 cards, not just 1.




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